On Episode 63 of The Edge of Innovation, we’re talking with entrepreneur Greg Arnette, about some of the latest tech trends and gadgets that are on our radar.
Greg Arnette’s Website
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Amazon Fire Tablet
LED Light Buying Guide
Sonos – The Wireless Home Sound System
Amazon Echo Data Called Upon In Criminal Case
“Alexa device helps solve string of break-ins” – An article Paul Parisi commented on
Link SaviorLabs Cybersecurity Assessment
Sonian Acquired by Barracuda
A Lot of Hard Work
Apple AirPods: The Coolest Technology This Year
Iphones Versus Androids
Phone Reliability and Quality
Verizon or AT&T?
The Latest Lighting Technology
Replacing Florescent Bulbs With LED Bulbs
How to Store Media
Sonos Audio System
Terrific Tech Trends on Our Radar
Sonian Acquired by Barracuda
Paul: And so now you were just acquired.
Paul: Sonian was just acquired by Barracuda, which I think at the same time, got acquired by somebody else, or there was a sort of cascade of acquisitions there?
Greg: There was. So in early November of 2017 Barracuda completed the acquisition of Sonian, and then about a month later, they announced that Barracuda would be going private. So Barracuda was a public company at the acquisition of us, and then a private equity firm in San Francisco called Thoma Bravo took Barracuda private. And well, now we’re a private company. So it’s a common trend you see these days.
Paul: Yeah. Dell did it and…
Greg: Rackspace did it and GoDaddy did it.
A Lot of Hard Work
Paul: So you were an overnight success that took–
Greg: 10 years.
Paul: And I would say, as a distant observer, a lot of hard work.
Greg: It was.
Paul: You guys did some hard work. So you were tired after IntelliReach. Were you tired after Sonian? Not that we’re after it yet, but was it as tiring, or had you learned more or dealt with it better?
Greg: Certainly had better mental tools to deal with stress, startup world, raising capital, dealing with board of directors, dealing with investors, growing companies and so forth. And, I wouldn’t say tired; maybe a little fatigued. I’m always excited about what’s next. It was excited about finding that next problem to solve, taking the latest in technology trends and turning it into a business service kind of thing.
Paul: So, do you have things that you’re excited about now?
Greg: Oh, so right now I’m focused on helping Barracuda go to the next level. They’ve already achieved quite a bit of success. I mean, they’re known around the world, a brand name and so forth. But there’s a bit movement to migrate everything to the cloud and what attracted them about Sonian was our cloud platform, just the fact that we have sort of “born on the cloud” kind of a company. Back in 2007, 2008, there were a lot of projects that kind of started right around the same time, and they all kind of ran for about 10 years and got acquired or went public, so it’s sort of a traditional path, the enterprise SaaS.
Paul: So, okay, so let’s shift it a little bit. So that’s sort of your professional background. And we talked a little bit about growing up in technology and the right end of a soldering iron.
Greg: Yeah, that’s important.
Apple AirPods: The Coolest Technology This Year
Paul: So what’s the coolest piece of tech, physical piece of tech, you’ve seen this past year?
Greg: Oh, interesting. It was probably just this past year, the coolest piece of tech are the Apple AirPods.
Paul: AirPods. Okay. And why? What’s…?
Greg: They just work so elegantly. It’s kind of a weird little thing. I just got a pair that, after looking at them for a long time and trying out different wireless earbuds, Bluetooth-based earbuds for listening to a podcast or talking on the phone, for my iPhone. I just think the product – the packaging, the seamless usability, just everything is just magical to me. They’re so tiny.
Paul: I was really impressed.
Greg: It’s hard to pick one thing. I’m just so…a big appetite.
Paul: We’ll get into some others. But of all the things, that’s really the coolest that you think. It’s sort of the newest for you.
Greg: Yeah, it’s pretty new. New for me, for sure. They’ve been around for a while.
Paul: I thought it was really… The little package it comes in or the charging case. That’s ingenious. That’s really cool. Well, well done.
Greg: Yeah. Just the way it connects so seamlessly to your iOS device and this is after backing probably three or four different Kickstarter campaigns for various other attempts to do what the AirPod has done well. And even I have one of them…it’s just like is it anchor or…? The really popular USB company.
Paul: Yeah, I think you’re right.
Greg: They have a division that’s focused on audio. They came up with their version of this and I’m just drawing a blank on the name of it. So I finally got my Kickstarter reward. I was like “Oh this is going to be great.” This is before I got the AirPods. And I couldn’t fit the darn things in my ear. They had those complicated gel-based inserts, and it just felt so uncomfortable. I said this is not going to work. So I said I’m going to go for the AirPods.
Iphones Versus Androids
Paul: So now, you obviously use an iPhone. Do you have an iPhone X? What do you have?
Greg: I have a really old in that function. I have an iPhone 6s.
Paul: That’s what I have. That’s what I have in Plus.
Greg: Oh, the Plus, the bigger size.
Paul: Yeah, the bigger size.
Greg: This is after having the original iPhone for way too long.
Paul: Okay, why do you not have a 7, 8, or X?
Greg: For some reason, around my phones, I don’t know if I’m being conservative or just being thrifty. I just…
Paul: Well, you’re a New Englander, so you gotta be thrifty.
Greg: Yeah. So, I saw an article recently. It said don’t get the iPhone 8 or X, just get the 6s. It’s just really all you need for it. So I bought a refurb 6s, and it’s been great.
Paul: You bought a refurb one on top of it?
Greg: From Apple. Yeah. I just bought it outright. Didn’t do the phone, the phone leasing or whatever. For some reason, I like to own my phone.
Paul: Yeah. Me too. I know exactly what you mean.
Greg: And I don’t want to spend a lot, because I’m afraid I’m going to drop or break it. And at some point, I do lust after that iPhone X, but I’ll get one eventually, I’m sure.
Paul: There’s going to be the X plus 1 soon. I mean, they gotta come up with the 11. That’s fascinating. So have you ever tried Android phones?
Greg: I have. Yeah. So before the iPhone 6 I had an Android for many, many years. Yeah, various different Android phones. And I’m a latecomer to iOS, the iPhone. I’ve had iPads for a long time, and iPods for a long time. And I was just kind of wanting to bridge the Android-iOS device gap. I have an Android phone but just got tired of it and said I’m just going to–
Paul: Tired of what?
Greg: It just seemed like it… Let’s see. It was a Verizon Android phone. So it had all the Verizon apps on it were all kind of crappy and it didn’t feel as tight. I was less interested in fiddling around with phones. I just wanted it to be a really good utility device that I could count on and work. I was getting more and more into the Apple product family. I have a Mac and iPads and I just thought, I’ll just go that direction.
Paul: A good friend of mine who is a security researcher, announced on Facebook – this was probably four years ago – “I’m switching to Android.” And he was a real fanboy for Mac and iOS. And I was like really? I just can’t believe this. So I watched, and I kept asking him every few weeks, “How’s it going? How’s it going?” And he was enthusiastic initially, but then about a year later, he said, “I’m switching back.”
And I’m like, “What happened, Dan?”
He says, “The apps just aren’t as tight.”
Greg: That’s a great way to say it.
Paul: It’s like quality control isn’t there. And it is profound thing, but on the opposite side of that, I have seen – which really shocks me – is the willingness for people to switch between iOS and Android based on a sales decision in a phone store. I mean that aren’t techy geeks like us. I mean, I had to deliberately switch and say I’m going to tolerate this for a while and ultimately went back. But I was surprised at how willing…
I have a friend who’s a housewife, and she said, “Oh, I went in and looked at all the phones, and I bought a Windows phone.” This was three, four years ago.
And I went, really? Why would you do that? And then she went back a bought an Android phone a couple of years later. And she – I don’t know if it was good sense but – asked me, “What should I buy?”
I said, “Get an iPhone.”
She went and bought an iPhone, and it wasn’t that crises of changing in their mind. I’m surprised at that. That the people are willing to make that change. I mean, there’s people like us who have a real hard time with it but…
Greg: Yeah. No, I completely resonate with how you’re describing that. Seen similar examples, the phone kiosk at Costco or something. People are just, “I’ll just take that phone” and not thinking about it. Like, I would analyze every app, and I would like overthink this.
Paul: I did the same thing.
Greg: But in general, it just feels like just Android apps aren’t as crisp or tight or something. And maybe it’s there’s less rigor or less…the frameworks aren’t as good. I’ve never built a mobile app, so I don’t know, or built an app that was designed for mobile. I’ve done the what’s the platform for that phone? Something, phone gap or something.
Paul: Oh PhoneGap. Yeah.
Phone Reliability and Quality
Greg: But, for example, so I have a couple of those Amazon Fire tablets around the house because they’re really inexpensive, little devices to have around for controlling things.
Paul: Oh okay. So you’re using them for a task.
Greg: Yeah, like the Sonos controller or the Hue Lighting. I have some Hue bulbs in the house. And I can compare and contrast the iOS version of the app versus the Android version, and they just feel different. Like you said your friend said. It doesn’t feel as tight or crisp. And so that’s one thing that kind of works against me on thinking of Android.
I do follow people in the tech space who switch kind of as part of their wanting to be up-to-date, they switch back and forth every year between each device, just so they can live in the other environment. And I don’t have a need to do that for like my education or I’m out building products for those. So I don’t think it’s important. But I just need a really good phone that’s going to be reliable. I’m on the road all the time, and that’s what I count on the most.
Paul: Yeah. That’s the biggest frustration. I bought a OnePlus, and I bought the second version and the third version. And there’d be times when I couldn’t answer the phone. And I was just like…
Greg: That’s frustrating. It’s failing in its prime directive.
Paul: Yeah, exactly. It’s like this is a utility, you know. It’s like thinking about the old Telco guys who did it a certain way. And that’s the way we did Telco. And it always worked, you know. And now we’re in this Wild West of Voice over IP where it works sometimes.
Greg: Yeah, it’s funny that with all the great technology we have, the quality of the connections has really gone done in terms of like plain old POTS lines, plain old telephone service.
Paul: But I have noticed when somebody calls you from an iPhone, and you’re on an iPhone, the quality is incredible.
Greg: It does some like some magic happens. Some kind of like special handshake.
Paul: My brother called me one day, and he’s like, “It sounds like you’re right here.” He was calling on his iPhone. He called my iPhone. But, man, I was just like, wow. So there is some magic. I think there is. There must be.
Verizon or AT&T?
Greg: HD voice or something I’ve seen.
Paul: Is that just a marketing thing or is that real?
Greg: I think it’s real. I think it might be kind of what you’re describing in terms of a higher fidelity or more crystal clear connection. So, at home, on the Outer Cape, and Verizon cell phone service is kind of spotty. In the early days, I bought one of those network extender devices from Verizon to have a little mini cell tower, but it didn’t really work that well beyond a sort like 20, 30 feet from the device. So it kind of defeated the purpose. But with the newest iPhone, I found that I can… it uses the Wi-Fi connection over my Comcast for voice. And it just sounds really clear when that happens. So I’m not sure what’s going on, but it’s a positive experience.
Paul: So now I’m interested. You mentioned you’re using a Verizon phone?
Greg: Verizon iPhone. Yeah.
Paul: So why that? Why not AT&T?
Greg: Coverage, just for me. Maybe it’s just all marketing and it worked well, but they just say the best coverage.
Paul: Well, how about the fact that on an AT&T iPhone, you can do something while you’re on the phone. You can use the internet while you’re on the phone. I don’t think you can do that on a Verizon.
Greg: It’s really weird. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can’t. I’m not sure why. But previously that it was a big drawback is that – what is it? – CDMA didn’t allow for voice and data at the same time. But with LTE and something else, I’ve–
Paul: Okay. Maybe that’s an edge.
Greg: But I have seen times where I’m on the phone, and I have no data. And I have seen times when I’m on the phone, and I have data. So I haven’t been able to figure out why that works but it’s not as good as the GSM-based systems like AT&T. I don’t know if 5G changes all that again or not but whether we should be able to voice and data at the same time.
Paul: Or something. Or we can cook, do voice and data at the same time.
Greg: It could be in some cases I’m doing a VoIP call and don’t realize it, so it’s just all data anyway. So that might be why it works and sometimes it doesn’t.
The Latest Lighting Technology
Paul: Interesting. Okay so what other things and technology are real cool and zippy?
Greg: Beyond AirPods?
Paul: Beyond AirPods. Yeah.
Greg: Let’s see. Well I mentioned the lighting stuff again. Getting into sort of the latest generation of lighting.
Paul: So are you reinvigorated about that, or was there a lull in it? Sort of you put it in, it worked, it aged, and now it’s… I mean, there’s a whole new world with the lighting. It’s quantum difference.
Greg: It is. It’s amazing how fast it’s changing now. It feels like every six months there’s new advances in that area, just in time to help us save our planet.
Paul: Right. Exactly.
Greg: Low watt, low wattage, high fidelity bulbs…
Paul: Well, I have a 2004 Acura MDX. Works great. One of the lightbulbs burned out, the headlights. I put an LED in. It’s just stunning.
Greg: They have a retro kit fit for that? That’s really cool.
Paul: Snaps right in, and you plug it in. It took me five minutes. And, bought the pair of them for $33. The most difficult thing was figuring out which bulb I needed to get. On Amazon, I don’t know why, but all of a sudden, they have this thing that says, “Oh, tell us about your vehicles.”
I type in it’s an Acura MDX, etc.
“Well, here’s all the things you can buy for your vehicle.” So you can register your vehicle there. And they had suggested the wrong bulb. They sent it to me. Couldn’t fit it in. Sent it back. Got a different set. Popped it in, and man, it’s brighter. It’s whiter. It’s just fantastic. A real pleasant experience. Really better than I thought.
Greg: That’s interesting. I was wondering when that was going to be a possibility as to retro fit, yourself, to LED bulbs.
Paul: Yeah, and it happened without us even knowing it. Nobody gave us the memo. I don’t know why.
Greg: Yeah. Just sort of stumbled upon it.
Greg: Or Amazon surfaced it for you with their machine learning, artificial intelligence.
Paul: Yes, yes.
Greg: Because they know everything about you.
Paul: Yes, it was like, wow.
Replacing Florescent Bulbs With LED Bulbs
Paul: So what other cool things? What are you tinkering with around now?
Greg: So setting aside cloud and the business side of technology, which is where I spend most of my time right now, uh, let’s see… So retrofitting LEDs in the house, switching out a lot of fluorescents with LED tubes. Those are really cool. It’s like hit or miss as well. It’s kind of a weird thing right now because you have different ballasts in the fluorescent bulbs. Some work; some don’t. I stumbled across a brand of GE tubes that seems to work best across a wide variety of applications.
Paul: With the old ballast?
Greg: With the old ballast. But they’re never in stock because everyone else has figured that out too.
Paul: So you made the choice of changing the bulb to work with the old fixture, old ballast. What about stripping the ballast out and putting in just a… Like if it were 10 years from now, you wouldn’t be looking at a retro fit kit.
Greg: No, no.
Paul: So why not go with what we would go with in 10 years, in two years or whatever it is? Because I’m making the same decision. My wife has a plant light. It’s a tiered plant light, and it has all these expensive bulbs in it that are 15″ long, and they cost $20 or $30 a piece – grow lights. And I’m saying, well, I can buy new grow bulbs, or I can buy LED grow bulbs that work with the current ballast, or I can just retrofit the whole thing. What would you do?
Greg: So I just went the exact same process–
Paul: Ah, see? This is perfect.
Greg: I was planning – this is after studying a number of different websites and trying out some things that Costco had. They have some LED kits now that, from the FEIT company which didn’t really work out for me so well. So I was on a plan to basically bypass the ballast in my ceiling fluorescent fixtures in the garage, and I bought the replacement they call them… What do they call those? The things the bulbs plug into? I can’t think of the anchors or the…
Paul: Oh, uh…
Greg: The tombstones.
Paul: Tombstones, yeah. I just learned that yesterday.
Greg: So I bought the right tombstones. It’s probably a 15-minute rewire per fixture. And then a friend of mine of said, “Hey, I found these bulbs that…” Someone had told me that you don’t have to do anything. You just put them in, and they work. I tried them, and it actually worked and said, okay, I can save myself the time now. Down the road, I’m sure these ballasts will eventually give out, I’ll just do that rewiring trick then. And so it’s basically just saving some time right now. I would prefer to get the ballast out of the picture. I think they’re probably zapping some of the electricity so… But these lights don’t go on for very long, so I’m not too worried about that, so… I do like the purity of it. I want to just get things out of the way.
Paul: Exactly. Exactly. Less failure points.
Greg: Yeah. Less failure points. So I’m kind of kicking down the road a little bit of more work I’ll have to do. But this way I can just literally plug in new bulbs, and I have it. It’s all working fine.
Paul: Right. And it’s also hard to work above your head like that and change those tombstones is not trivial.
Greg: Yes. Yeah, and so I might have underestimated, actually, how long it would take. But I have all these instructions and–
Paul: And there’s sharp metal up there. You’d think it should be easy. When it’s down on the desk, it’s easy to work on a trough or a fluorescent light. But in the ceiling, your head gets, your neck gets all twisted.
Greg: You’re right. Yeah. So it would have been those projects that I probably have never have gotten around to had I not found the plug and play model.
Paul: I’ve never done that. I’ve never, not gotten to a project.
Greg: And also, I’m kind of a stickler on color temperature of lighting, and I didn’t want like different color temperatures. That would drive me crazy. So got all the same bulbs, and they seem to have a long lifespan. As long as they initially work, they should work for as long as I probably will have to deal with them. So, yeah. So there’s the light retrofitting project. And then sort of pulled out a original whole-house audio system and replaced with Sonos.
How to Store Media
Paul: Oh, okay. Cool. Where do you store your media? Your audio and… Well, let’s talk about that for a minute. So I’ve never been one of these people who wants to rip all these movies and store them on hard disks. I, I don’t understand the use case there. I mean, maybe you can offer insight there. And people use Plex to watch their movies. And I’m like I’ll stream it. I mean you can stream just about anything. Now maybe that’s a holdover from five years ago.
But the one thing I do sort of get is, I want to store all my music. Now, as my daughter has Apple Music, which she loves. She’s only 14, so she’s got a lot less library to think about, and I’ve got stuff that’s pretty esoteric. So I’m thinking, well gee, I want to store everything in the cloud. What do you do for music storage, video storage – that take of stuff?
Greg: Yeah, it’s an evolving conversation at home, but the core anchor is a Mac that has iTunes on it with a very large music library that, over time, as CDs have been ripped and stored electronically the last few years – I mean, maybe the last four or five years – I don’t think I’ve bought anything physical. It’s always been just mp3 files either through iTunes or Amazon Music. And now more recently, it’s everything is just streaming.
Paul: You don’t buy it. You just rent it for the time you’re listening to it.
Greg: Yeah. Sonos has been a good. It lets you kind of look out across all your sources with a seamless consistent interface, and I don’t think much about whether I have it as a local file on my mp3 or whether I’m getting it from the cloud, whether I’m entitled to it forever, I’m just sort of renting the song as part of a subscription. And Apple Music has been the primary music subscription service we use at home after sort of looking at Spotify and Pandora and stuff like that.
Greg: I think Amazon Music is too, I think.
Paul: Yeah. So how do you differentiate when you choose to play something at home? Do you just say, “I want to play this song” or…? And it goes, figures out where it is or…? I’m wondering how Sonos deals with these online libraries the streaming libraries.
Greg: Think of it sort of an Uber directory around, over it, or, or index of it, if you will, which melds together your stuff you have locally. So you build playlists of local and stuff in the cloud or stuff that you stream. Oftentimes I’ll choose a song and, say, build a playlist around this kind of thing and just kind of be serendipitous about it.
Paul: And Sonos is that, does that?
Greg: I might actually be Apple Music that’s doing that, part of it. But Sonos is giving me access to it. They’re getting better and better about the integration between the Sonos software and the controller and iTunes or Apple Music services, after a long time of being not really working well together, which was kind of a shame because it appeals to the same audience – the high-end Sonos and people that are probably iTunes fanatics.
Sonos Audio System
Paul: Okay so you ripped out a whole-house audio system and put in Sonos.
Greg: Yeah, sort of. Yeah. So that kind of weird time frame around 2004 when home automation was was dominated by these brands called Crestron and Elan and, and stuff. We were fortunate to be able to put a system in when the house was built and kind of just rolled it into the cost of the house. Now that I look back and what we paid for that thing discreetly, it just blows my mind. We have touch panels in some of the rooms that cost like a thousand dollars. And then we hardly ever used them either. They just demoed really well in the showroom.
Paul: Yeah, it looked cool.
Greg: It looked cool.
Paul: But it didn’t transition to usefulness.
Greg: Yeah. You could actually watch a TV on the touch panel. Like we never ever did that.
Paul: Right, of course. You’re standing at the door watching the touch panel. Yeah.
Greg: Like, yeah. Just choose that ABC show or something. So paid a lot for something we didn’t use and, in hindsight, it turns out the quality of the music, the quality of the audio that was being processed through these big mega room controllers was much, much more inferior to sort of just a traditional amp that would power a nice set of speakers. So that system sort of developed problems because it became kind of aged and these system weren’t built, probably, for long-term durability with really good manufacturing. So, just making some big, gross exaggerations here, but…
Paul: Yeah. No, I understand.
Greg: So, they’re very expensive to next. So when, in consultation with a home audio consultant, pulled all that stuff out and put Sonos in, but leveraged the existing amps, the existing speakers, and now we have keypads and controllers on the wall that we don’t use, and I think eventually, we’ll just have them ripped out and just sheetrocked over just so we can make it nice and clean and so forth.
It’s funny. Sometimes you walk into a house that might have been built in the ’60s. They have those intercom systems in, and they look just very dated, and these keypads and controllers will look that same way down the road when it’s all wireless and tablet-based and so forth. So, yeah. So I was able to replace all the control system with Sonos, and it’s the Sonos that doesn’t have the amp. It just drives an amp. So they’re called bridges or controllers or something.
Paul: So do you do much with home automation? Are you using Z-Wave or Zigbee or Insteon or any of that?
Greg: I think I will in the future.
Paul: Oh really.
Greg: I’m not sure which one yet, but right now the home was built.. So the audio system was separate system on controllers. And then the lighting system was based on Lutron, a RadioRA, which was pretty state of the art a long time ago. But you couldn’t control it with a computer. It’s a kind of a closed system. And I’d like to replace it with the modern version of all that down the road.
Paul: Well, when you’re ready, let’s talk.
Greg: I’m going to.
Paul: We had X10 for the longest time, and we switched to a combination of Insteon and Z-Wave. We basically support all the protocols. You can get any device and integrate it. It works really well.
Greg: Yeah. I’m curious around that. I had a big X10 thing prior to the Lutron, and with the bridges and the controllers, I actually just have a whole box of it I want to bring to the place to recycle electronics because it’s just not useful anymore.
Paul: That’s right. It’s true. It’s very true.
Greg: Yeah. The programming and the macros and all that kind of stuff for turning things on and off… It was hit or miss though.
Paul: Yeah, well, it’s gotten a lot better. So it’s gotten a lot better.
Greg: Yeah, there’s a lot of improvement there. And then it, then it’s kind of figuring out what system to be the anchor. Right? What’s your hub strategy? What Amazon is doing with Alexa is pretty cool.
Paul: Yeah. Do you have an Alexa?
Paul: Do you use it?
Greg: Yeah. For simple things.
Paul: Did you hear the story in Gloucester? I was asked to comment on this. It happened a young six-year-old boy broke into in neighbor’s house and stole some money. And the woman who was the owner of the house, got home, and her house had been broken into. For some reason, she thought to go to Alexa and listen to what was spoken during this time. And it was clearly this little kid talking.
Greg: Oh, because it, it…
Paul: He was muttering in the room, and Alexa picked it up.
Paul: And the police used that to go to his parents and say, this is not good and all that. But if it were an adult, I don’t know. A conviction? So I’m intrigued by that, and sort of that unintended consequence there. So now you can go home and worry, I guess. You know, whether what you say…
Greg: We joke around all the time with what’s being recorded, where does this stuff live? How much get uploaded to the cloud? How much is discoverable later, down the fact, after the cash gets purged?
Paul: Yeah, exactly. Well there’s another story. A husband and wife were arguing about something. And one of them said to the other – I think this is probably embellished but “What are you going to do – call 9-1-1?” Police showed up.
Greg: Oh, wow.
Paul: So, it was just like, oh, wow. That was an unintended consequence. So you use Alexa. Do you use any of the others?
Greg: No. Like Google Home or Siri? Alexa just started off as… I think I got like a free original, the tower Alexa from AWS or something and said, oh, this is pretty cool. And then I replaced that with the one that has the digital, the LCD, the Alexa Show for the kitchen. So it’s countdown timer, what’s the weather, you know. Simple things. Haven’t mastered the how to talk to it effectively to get it to do things. And haven’t really got it to figured out how to do control Sonos yet because you just have to use a specific order of words to get it to do what you want. As we’re training them, it’s also training us.
Paul: That’s right. Exactly. Exactly.