Tag: pastors

Is Church the Place for Innovation?

On Episode 99 of The Edge of Innovation, we’re talking with Mark Dever, the senior pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, about whether or not church is the place for innovation.

Sections

Innovation & Entrepreneurship in the Church
Is Church Run Like a Business?
What Does the Church Try To Accomplish?
How a Church Measures Their Success
Running an Organization
Training Up Other People
Is Church the Place For Innovation?
Starting Another Organization: Is It a Good Idea?
Encouragement For Entrepreneurs & Innovators
Five Sources To Find Out More About Christianity
Entrepreneurs & Faith
Conclusion
More Episodes
Show Notes

Is Church the Place for Innovation?

Innovation & Entrepreneurship in the Church

Paul: So, welcome to the Edge of Innovation. Today were talking with Mark Dever from Washington D.C.

So, do you think you’re an entrepreneur?

Mark: Well, in that I don’t mind trying new things, yeah. I think I’m an odd entrepreneur in the sense that I tend to be kind of traditional, conservative and extremely, by nature, content. So, I don’t feel restless or driven but I think I do work as hard as entrepreneurs tend to work and I think I’m very willing to try certain kinds of new things.

Paul: So, you’re mixing innovation in with entrepreneurship. And they’re very close and they’re very intermingled. Where do you think that there has been innovation in your work in the church? Or is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? It’s a fairly big subject.

Mark: I think I’ve worked to recover older, more biblical practices that have been largely lost in too many churches today and I’ve put those back in a modern church.

Paul: I see. Well that’s re-innovation, if you will. That’s cool. Do you think that there is room or opportunity to innovate in the church?

Mark: Yeah, sure. I think it can be done very badly and I think it can be done very well. But yes.

Paul: So, what’s some examples of that?

Mark: Well, badly would be if you change, if you innovate in the message. That would be a very bad thing. Badly would be if you create a kind of legalism where you’re requiring things that Jesus Christ did not require. Innovation could be a good thing if you are thinking of how to achieve your goals for your church in ways that haven’t been thought of before but work well and are consistent with what you think are good and true

Is Church Run Like a Business?

Paul: So, do you think that your church, do you run it like a business or is that fundamentally different?

Mark: Oh, I think it’s pretty fundamentality different. For example, when my salary is discussed by the elders, I literally leave the room so that I know nothing of those conversations. So yeah. We’re not trying to personally make money. We don’t profit in that sense.

Paul: Do you have customers?

Mark: People who are members of the church, who attend here, may think of themselves that way. We don’t use that as an image because it makes the customer, king and we understand that God is king and we understand that He has revealed in the scriptures what we should do, believe, have, and so we don’t think that’s just up to the individual’s choice.

What Does the Church Try To Accomplish?

Paul: I see. So, you have a thousand people coming to services. You are having an impact in their life and they’re having an impact in the people around them’s life. Do you think that the church, this particular church, accomplishes a lot and if so, what is the primary accomplishment that you would sort of extol?

Mark: That we try to be faithful to what God has revealed in Scripture and we try to help other people do that, to live in a life of love of God and love of neighbor as we should. So, that’s what we work for.

Paul: So, it’s very different, it’s a quality of life.

Mark: Right. It’s not a quantity. It’s not find me a metrical thing, like we can count it up.

Paul: Right.

Mark: So, for example Paul, our church has as a building, one large room that, I think, can seat about a thousand people. Well that room has been full for ten years so we’re not having growing number of members. Our number of members is kind of static at about nine hundred and fifty to a thousand. And what we try to do is, try to serve them as well as we can. We have people die or move on, so we’ve always got sort of more space for people who want to come in but success can’t be seen in our percentage of numerical increase each year.

How a Church Measures Success

Paul: I see. So how do you measure success?

Mark: Just by whether or not we evaluate ourselves as being faithful in being and doing those things that we’ve been called to be and to do.

Paul: I see. So, the teachings of the Bible, is what you’re saying. Do we fulfill those? Do we understand those?

Mark: If we have a husband who is abusing his wife and we do nothing to stop him from doing that, then we understand that we’re failing. If we act and stop him from doing that and we help the wife and we help the children, then we understand that as success.

Paul: I see. So, you actually get into the messiness of human interaction.

Mark: Very much so.

Running an Organization

Paul: Yeah, that’s very interesting. So again, revisiting the idea where you didn’t go to school for organizational management. You didn’t go to school for how to run an organization. You went to school for church history, I guess?

Mark: Yeah. Historical theology. Yeah.

Paul: How did you make that leap to running an organization?

Mark: Well, when you become the pastor of a church and then that church grows, you will end up having a certain amount of responsibility for that organization.

Paul: But is it just, you pulled it out of your hat or did you take a secret management class someplace or is it just that you were born with it?

Mark: I’m guessing born with it. It’s interesting. The seminary I went to did make us take what they called a leadership course, where we read books at the time by Ted Peters, folks like that. And I have to say all the stuff that we read… In Search of Excellence.

Paul: Yes. Tom Peters.

Mark: All the stuff I read seemed kind of obvious, so it didn’t seem unusually insightful to me. it seemed true, but I didn’t need somebody to tell me that kind of stuff.

Training Up Other People

Paul: So, what I’ve struggled with as being a leader is, well, I know it’s right, do it my way. And I’ve seen many leaders struggle with that. Has that been a problem with you?

Mark: Not so much. I’m a big believer in training up other people and then if you can get other people learning to do things, you’re multiplying.

Paul: Right. Okay.

Mark: So, I’d much rather have it done not quite as well but sufficiently well, and moving in a good direction by a new person, and then help them to learn how to train others also.

Is Church the Place For Innovation?

Paul: So, now, you have all of these members. Would the members say that your church is innovative? I guess you already sort of answered that question. And is a church the place to be innovative?

Mark: I think the fundamental answer to that is no.

Paul: Okay.

Mark: But you could misunderstand that. I think it’s fine if the church tries, you know, an new air conditioning system, a new PA system, to sing a new hymn. I think that’s fine. If you think the church needs to have new things like that in order to survive, I would say well that’s not true and I would say it’s basic marching orders have been laid down very clearly for thousands of years in Scripture and what we want to work at is to continue to be faithful and try to follow those instructions.

Starting Another Organization: Is It a Good Idea?

Paul: Now, you mentioned an organization 9Marks. Why did you start this? You have a church who is functioning well. Many times with business, you hear, “Focus focu,s focus!” And so, it’s very usually dangerous to take a tangent and go off and do something else because it dilutes tension and venture capitalists look at it and say, “No. Stop half of the things you’re doing and do the other half twice as well.”
So, you went off and started this thing called 9Marks. What was the impetus for that? What was the point? What was the problem you were trying to solve?

Mark: Well, it was actually some friends who started 9Marks kind of with me. It was more their idea to start an organization, the marks of a church, that is talking about are things that I had noted and I had taught and even written about. These friends thought, “Mark. You’re doing this well enough in this church, let’s try to reproduce some of these things you’re saying and doing and teaching.” You know kind of like a Harvard business review.

Paul: Oh, okay.

Mark: Best practices kind of stuff. Let’s share this with other pastors so they can see what’s going on and maybe develop resources that would help them improve their churches.

Paul: And has that gone the way you expected it? Better? Worse? When you started it, it sounded like you were a reluctant traveler. “Okay, you guys are interested in dong this, I’ll come along.” Is that fair or… and how has it worked out?

Mark: I think that’s fair. It’s gone well. It’s been around for twenty-one years. And yeah, if you go to the website 9marks.org, look on a church search map, you’ll find about four thousand churches in the U.S. that have affiliated themselves with this, saying they agree with these marks of a healthy church.

And we have produced lots of content for free, you’ll find on the website. And probably about sixty different titles, sixty different books of which I’ve only written, oh, five or ten of them. Not a lot of them, and most of those are being translated into many different languages around the world. Almost every week, I’ll receive some copies of some 9Marks title that’s been translated into – this last week, Polish. And you know, it just keeps going.

Encouragement For Entrepreneurs & Innovators

Paul: So, is there anything you’d like to say to would-be entrepreneurs or innovators or business people? Anything at all?

Mark: Yeah, just as a Christian, I think business is hugely important. It’s productive. It created wealth. It gives jobs to people. It helps people meaningfully organize their time to do things that help other people. So, I love business people, men and women. I love to see their creativity, their productivity, the blessing they are to others. So, as a pastor of a Christian church, I just couldn’t be more encouraged by men and women listening podcasts like yours Paul, and trying to get better doing what they do, because if they get better doing what they do, it’s going to help everyone around them. So, I’m super thankful for good business people.

Paul: Well, that could be a good oxymoron. Good business people.

Mark: Well you know what I mean. You know what I mean.

Five Sources To Find Out More About Christianity

Paul: No, I’m just saying, but it could be. Very much so.

So, let me go back. So, you’ve talked about Christianity, You’ve talked about what it is. I would imagine a lot of people listening to us don’t really know what Christianity really means. They may have a notion of it. Where would you direct them to be able to learn more about what you say Christianity is or what you believe Christianity is?

Mark: Okay, what I believe Christianity is. I’ll give you five sources you can go look at.

Talk to a good friend of yours who’s a Christian. That’s number one, a friend. Get him to explain it to you.

Number two, go find a good church near you and let them explain it to you.

Number three, grab a good book. I’ll mention two: C.S. Lewis, called “Mere Christianity” or Greg Gilbert, a book called “Who is Jesus?” So that’s C.S. Lewis, “Mere Christianity”, Greg Gilbert, “Who is Jesus?” These books would very briefly explain to you Christianity.

You could yourself pick up a copy of the Bible and start reading the Gospels about Jesus. I would encourage you to read Mark’s Gospel. It’s short. It’s the shortest of the Gospels. We think it may have been the earliest written.

And finally, I would tell you go to the 9Marks website and just look up, just type in the word “gospel”. Because that’s the basic message of Christianity. G-O-S-P-E-L. Just type in “gospel” and see what articles come up and read or listen to some of the resources you find there.

Paul: Okay, well, we’ll put all those links in the show notes so people don’t have to furiously write them down.

Mark: You could also put one of capbap.org, so if they want to hear any of my teaching, they are there for free.

Entrepreneurs & Faith

Paul: Excellent. What would you, if you were to meet with a would-be entrepreneur, has really no experience with faith, what would your conversation be like with one of them?

Mark: Well, it happens from time to time, I mean that’s not just hypothetical. One of the guys who helped us start 9Marks, actually gave us several hundred thousand dollars to get started. He was just a businessman who lived here, a few doors down and he just liked what he saw happening in this church. He thought if other churches became more like this, it would help communities they were in. So, he gave us money to try to help us get started.

So, conversations can vary a lot. They can have a personal interest in faith themselves, they can just like some of the things that we’re doing and want to be a part of it, so it varies a lot.

Conclusion

Paul: Very cool. Any other things you’d like to cover or talk about?

Mark: No, I mean, it’s been a good conversation.

Paul: Alright, well, we’ve been speaking with Mark Dever, the senior pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington D.C. and I guess you’re four blocks behind the supreme court building?

Mark: Exactly.

Paul: We’ve been talking about a church in Washington D.C. where Mark is the teaching pastor? Do you have a particular title?

Mark: Senior pastor.

Paul: Senior pastor. So, you’re old is what they’re saying?

Mark: I’m very old.

Paul: Oh my gosh. Well, did you actually get to meet Jesus?

Mark: After a manner of speaking, but not in the way you mean it, I think.

Paul: Okay. Well, we’ve had a good conversation and we’d love your feedback.

More Episodes:

This is Part 3 of 3 our interview with Mark Dever. If you missed part 1, you can listen to it here!

And if you missed part 2, you can listen to it here!

Show Notes:

Exploring Christianity: Who is God?

On episode 58 of The Edge of Innovation, we are exploring Christianity and who God is with Pastor Paul Buckley of King of Grace Church.

Show Notes

The King Of Grace Church Website

Follow Paul Buckley on Twitter

Paul Buckley’s Blog

Follow King of Grace Church on Facebook

Listen to Paul Buckley’s recent sermons

Find King of Grace Church on Soundcloud to listen to more sermons from Pastor Paul Buckley and other King of Grace pastors

Read the Hawaiian Pidgin Bible online here

Read The Gospel of Mark online here

Read The Gospel of John online here

Read the English Standard Version of the Bible online here

Link to SaviorLabs’ Free Assessment

Sections

Pastors are Shepherds
What Does a Pastor Do?
The Nature of God – Who is God?
Is God a Mean Guy?
Looking Deeper in the Bible
The Gospels
Which Bible Should I Read?
Social Media as a Relationship Substitute
King of Grace Church – How it Began
The Presence of a Person
The Main Thing – Wrapping it All Up

Exploring Christianity: Who is God?

Pastors are Shepherds

Paul P: So you were, you’re a scientist. Not were. You are. And you’re a material scientist which is nontrivial. I mean, you know, it’s figuring out how things work and how they’re used in their extreme in some ways. Not just, oh, this is tape. You put it on something. It’s really stretching and understanding materials. I mean, before Post-It notes were invented, when Post-It notes were invented, they were a miracle. But a material scientist probably could have come up with that or would have been the type of person, and you were doing that in all sorts of different materials. So, I guess what I’m getting at is there was something there that wasn’t readily apparent. You know, Post-It notes was a failed experiment.

So now you were encouraged by the people around you, by your relationship with God, to go into ministry. I’ve always been struck by all the other countries in the world have minister of defense, minister of this, minister of that. And in America, we have secretary of defense.

So what does that mean to minister to people? So would you consider yourself a minister or a pastor, or are they different things?

Paul B: Well, minister is a title, and it connotes the idea of service. So, it’s a matter of protocol in some ways, what we call someone. Pastor literally means shepherd. In the scripture, you know, that’s what the role is called. So, I’m fine being called a minister. In our church and our group of churches, we typically don’t use the word minister. But I’m supposed to minister. I’m supposed to serve. I’m supposed to help people.

Paul P: So, help with what?

Paul B: Well, I help people in my role as a lead pastor.

Paul P: Do you come over and empty my trash.

Paul B: Sometimes.

Paul P: Are you serious?

Paul B: I’ve done all sorts of things in helping people. But that’s not the core of what I’m supposed to do — empty the trash. I need to be available to help people. A pastor’s called to really be like Christ. Really, all Christians are, but a pastor’s called to be like Christ in caring for others, shepherding people. Christ is the Good Shepherd, the ultimate shepherd. And pastors are seen as under shepherds. They’re shepherds that kind of are similar. So they’re to care of people.

So that metaphor of a shepherd and his flock is used in scripture quite a bit. It’s really the ancient, near-Eastern shepherd, not a Western shepherd. So the ancient near-Eastern shepherd lived with the flock. The flock knew him. He had names for all the sheep. He could speak to them, and he would lead them. He didn’t drive them. So he’d walk ahead to the next place, and they knew his voice. They’d stay close. He cared for them. And so that’s the image. A pastor is a leader who is integral to the flock. He’s part of the flock. He knows people. They know him. He leads in Christian truth. He leads in the application of that truth, coming alongside as someone who helps people. So there’s a degree of leadership. There’s a degree of assistance. There’s a degree of counseling and care that goes on. And a pastor is supposed to do that as part of a whole church.

So there are other people that come alongside and assist in many different roles, so you’re not by yourself in that but you’re kind of leading in that. So that’s kind of what I do.

What Does a Pastor Do?

Paul P: What does that physically, practically mean? I’m trying to figure out what is it you actually do. We sort of made the joke going over and emptying somebody’s trash or whatever. But I imagine it’s a lot more in depth than that. What is sort of the top level? Give some examples of what you do.

Paul B: Yeah, really, the most important things that a pastor is to do is really to minister in the word and in prayer — so to serve with the word of God. So you’re going to teach the Bible. You teach what it means and how we live in light of the Bible. So that’s done in many different contexts. That’s done in the context of relationships and meetings. Maybe you have different meetings, different groups that meet at the church, most centrally in our Sunday worship. There’s a message every week. You know, a 40, 45-minute message that’s given on the scriptures, the truth of the scriptures and the application of that. So you’re teaching the word but that’s also happening in relational contexts throughout the week.

I meet a lot in more one-on-one or one-on-two type contexts for what we would call biblical counseling. So people going through difficulties. It could be a long stint in unemployment and just wondering, you know, “What do I do?” And, “I feel terrible about myself, and so help me out.” And we talk about biblical truths that impact that and that help them endure through those times, where people are suffering and going through sickness. We have people with relational conflicts. And all the different problems of life, a pastor is to be a helper, comes alongside, helps with the truths of God’s word and understanding and applying and enjoying those truths.

Prayer would be something I spend time in, probably about an hour every day, just praying for our church. We believe that God is and he answers prayer, and we’re called to pray. All Christians are called to pray. But a pastor is really to spend a good amount of time praying, praying for his people. So that’s what I do.

During the week, we also, we’re an organization, as well. So we are an entity, an organization that has to be led and administered. So I oversee that. I don’t do too much of the administration. We have an administrator. We have different deacons, people who serve in the church in certain roles or responsibilities. So they do a lot of that, but I kind of oversee it. So there’s that aspect as well. I interact with other pastors and other, to some degree, community organizations and so that takes up part of the week. So all in all, I have to actually work hard to not spend too much time doing my job as a pastor and to keep my hours under 60.

The Nature of God – Who is God?

Paul P: Interesting. So now, we were talking about the sort of very nature of God, and you were saying he was good. There’s a lot of people who, I think, have an opinion on God that he’s a killjoy, or just angry man up in heaven. And, is that the accurate picture of him, do you think? Or would you agree with that or not?

Paul B: No, I think it’s a very shallow picture. I think you have to deal with the fact, though, that he’s just and he’s good. And there are bad things that go on, and there are bad things we do. So to kind of think that it’s a guilt-free thing, it wouldn’t be accurate in the sense that God can’t just sweep the wrong things we do under the rug, but he does make provision for forgiveness, and he wants us to receive that provision and live in it. So the rest of the story is that he’s a God of great love. He’s a God who is glorious and all these things we see around us in creation are things that he’s made. So he’s just fantastic in all the things that he does and all the things that he wants us to engage in with him. So he’s all those things. He’s good. And he provides for us. And he cares for us. He loves us deeply. He’s infinitely powerful.

And so, again, we touch on these things in life. We love what the Hubble Telescope shows you, you know. That’s what God made, and it shows us what he’s like. He’s glorious. He’s an artist. He causes the sun to rise and set and eclipses to happen and all these glorious things that, because of just his genius, his power, and he wants you to know him. And he wants us to enjoy eclipses, and he wants us to enjoy sunny days, and he wants us to love each other, and he wants us to form companies like Savior Labs to, to do good things, to use gifts. There’s just really innumerable types of things that we’re to do by God’s design, and it really shows his character.

So yes, we have to deal with the fact that he’s holy and good, and he’s concerned about the reality of our sin and our brokenness. But he provides for that, and he wants us to live in his love. He wants us to be reconciled and, and that’s a big motivator for us as a church — to live in those things and to so love our neighbors and our community that they would be interested in hearing that good news and experiencing its results.

Is God a Mean Guy?

Paul P: That’s fascinating. There’s been a strand through history of God being this mean god up there. Certainly, there’s a bunch of people, I would think, think that. And it sounds like the God you’re describing isn’t like that. It sounds like his predominant feature or attribute is love. And that’s like, okay, so what’s the big deal? If he likes me, that seems like it’s going to trump a lot of things. I’m wondering why the predisposition to thinking he’s this big, bad, mean, mean guy up there?

Paul B: Yeah. That’s a good question. I don’t know why we always think that. I think it can come from our own sense of looking at our lives and realizing that we’ve, when we compare ourselves against God, we don’t look too good. So the typical response when God shows up in scripture is for people to hide, uh, to be afraid. And I think that’s just because of who we are.

Again, we realize that something is wrong. So I think someone who’s realizing they’ve done something wrong is going to be predisposed to think that the party that they’ve offended is coming to be angry and deal with it. So that might be part of why we would think that way about God. But he’s so much more than that. Again, he is good. He’s not going to just wink an eye at those things. But he wants us to reconciled. He approaches us through Christ and invites us to be reconciled to him.

So his disposition is not primarily towards the offense. It’s towards us in love, towards reconciliation. So that’s how he is. That’s how he thinks about us. So that caricature of the angry man is inaccurate in that way. It’s not portraying who he is. But I think it does touch on the sense, our sense of guilt and the sense of there being a problem. And again, the Good News is that there’s a solution from God to deal with that.

Paul P: But it sounds like, not only is there solutions, but he’s gone out of his way to create the solution. So in other words, you know, it’s sort of like you offend me. I guess this is… Tell me if I’m paraphrasing you right. You’ve offended me, and so I’m offended. And I’m going to create the solution to reconcile with you, even though you’re the offensive one. I’m going to not only just create the solution, not just put it on the shelf, but I going to pursue you with it. That seems radical.

Paul B: Yeah. It is radical. And we see that in the life of Christ. As we read those stories, we see what God is like. Jesus says that. If you know him, you know the father. If you really want to know what God’s like, read about Jesus in one of the gospels.

Looking Deeper in the Bible

Paul P: What would you recommend somebody read if they’ve sort of known this or heard this or are socially aware of it but are sort of intrigued by some of the things they’ve heard?

Paul B: Yeah. I think lots of places. Two good places to go, quick read that gives you a quick and dramatic snapshot of Christ—

Paul P: Well, it is 2017, so everything has to be quick.

Paul B: It’s not that quick. It’s not just a tweet. But the Gospel of Mark, is packed with action. You get to see Jesus at work, and there’s a lot of explanation that goes on. He does something, and then it gets explained and interpreted. So it’s a great way to see what he’s like.

Paul P: All of these references will be in our show note. And so, if you’re driving now, you don’t have to write this down. You can go back to our show notes afterwards.

So what else would you consider something that would be an encouragement to somebody that’s curious about this?

Paul B: Another good place to start is the Gospel of John. The Gospel of John is a little more intellectual maybe, a little more oriented towards concepts versus action. So Mark brings you who Jesus is through a lot of action and then explanation of the action. John is more… it’s still action. Jesus does things, but then there’s a lot of truth, a lot of ideas and concepts that are discussed and extended, and they go on for quite a while at times. I love them both. I like John in its depth of engagement and some of those concepts.

The Gospels

Paul P: So you said the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of John. What, what does that mean? In the Bible, there are all these different chapters or books in there and they are… Are they stories? Or what, what are they?

Paul B: The gospels. Again that would is just an old English way of saying Good News. So they’re the Good News according to Mark and, really, the good news about the life of Christ according to Mark. And they are ancient biographies. It’s important to understand ancient biographies are not like modern biographies so that the genre of biographies at that time was more about exposing you to the hero by kind of giving you snapshots. And it’s not a chronology. It’s not a detailed chronology of the hero’s life. It’s really like here’s what happened. Here’s what he did, and here’s what that means. Boom, boom, boom. You get a lot in that, so I’m not trying to underplay what you get from it. But if you go into it thinking I’m going to see a detailed, chronological biography of Jesus, you’re not going to see that.

Paul P: He was born on this day. It was a Thursday. It was raining. His parents were this, and then he grew up, and he, liked trains. Okay.

Paul B: Yeah. So it’s just a different type of literature, but really engaging biography.

Which Bible Should I Read?

Paul P: Okay. And so you’d recommend reading the Gospel of Mark and, and/or the Gospel of John. And now I know there are lots of different bibles out there. I mean, you can get the Photoshop bible, which tells everything about Photoshop. So you’re talking about, I think, the Holy Bible, of course, but there are different translations. There’s old English, which is sort of the, I think it’s called the King James Version, and what would you suggest would be more easy to read or easy to understand Bible that might be something that, you know, so you can choose from anything you want. We’re in America. We’re on the internet. We can pretty much get any, anything we want right now. Where would you have them turn?

Paul B: My favorite is the English Standard Version. All these versions are just different translations into English. So they’re pretty much all from the same original languages. So they’re all working off the same language — Hebrew and Greek and so forth. It’s just how do you say that in English? How do you translate it into our language? So they all agree very much. It’s just how do you phrase it.

So the English Standard Version is very well done. It’s a little more kind of college-level English, which can be good sometimes, because it can be more precise when it needs to be. If you want something that feels more kind of like how you talk with your best buddies, you know, the Contemporary English Version is good. And sometimes, you know, that is more effective.

I remember hearing a story of someone who went to college and was exposed to a Bible like the English Standard Version and read it and engaged in it. And they had grown up speaking, as a child, Pidgin English in Hawaii, and they were at some seminar, and there was a Bible translator reading out of a Hawaiian Pidgin English Bible, and this person was just touched deeply in their heart in ways that they had never been before, hearing the same words they had heard in a different translation now spoken in their childhood language. So it can has been that effect. So if you’re more comfortable kind of with the common vernacular you grew up with, maybe the Contemporary English Version. But the English Standard Version is an excellent—

Paul P: Well, we’ll put links to those in the show notes, maybe even the Pidgin…Hawaiian Pidgin English? Is that what it’s called?

Paul B: That’s it. Yeah.

Paul P: Wow.

Paul B: It’s called the Jesus Book.

Social Media as a Relationship Substitute

Paul P: Wow. Interesting. So we’ve sort of touched on social media and social, well, sort of social things — clubs we talked about and associations. And how do you think that is, we’re in 2017. There’s never been a 2017 yet. We’re in the first version of it, the only version of it. And we’ve never had the internet like we have it today. It’s all these new things. Imagine similar to the way the printed book was hundreds of years ago, or than the telephone was a hundred years ago, or not even a hundred years ago.

So all of these technologies come about. I think one of the differences between, I mentioned I’m into photography, so there’s been a photography club since photography was invented and people who were interested in it sort of clustered together and socialized and fellowshipped and got interested in that. But that took a very active, deliberate, act to go to a photo club. You’d have to go and do that.

Now with the internet, they’re sort of in our pocket. We can do anything we want. We can self-identify or have affinity to these groups that are much less, I guess, maybe tactile. You can have this virtualization of yourself to say, “Oh, yeah, I’m, I’m into photography because I go to this website that covers photography,” but there’s no person-to-person contact there. I might have a post on a Facebook page.

So what does that mean? Is that good? Is it bad? Is it a placebo for real relationships? And is it somebody sitting there trying to fill a need that ultimately they can’t fill because there’s nobody else in the room?

Paul B: Yeah, so is your question related to just the impact of these things on the church?

Paul P: I think that the church is one way to experience relationships. There is a big aspect of it based on what you’ve said. And what I’ve observed is that relationships are pretty important. So social media tends to, I think — I don’t want to overuse the word — become a placebo for relationships.

Paul B: Yeah, I think it’s a tool for relationship but I think we have to be careful to use it appropriately. So it can only do certain things. It can’t do other things. And I think the mistake is that we think it does it all. But like you were saying, placebo, you know, it gives this sense, like “Well, since I watch this church’s Sunday service from my house, I’m part of the church, and I’m, I’m good. I’m good to go, you know. I’m really involved in this church that I watch every Sunday,” or every Sunday night or whatever.

Now I don’t think it’s wrong necessarily to watch a church service on video. It can be great. But is that really what is intended in being part of a church? There’s so much more. There’s relationships, as you were saying. There’s a depth, there’s a breadth of relationship that is supposed to be part of being in a church. If you don’t have any commitment to anybody in that church to be there when they’re needy and just to be a friend—

Paul P: That’s what I’m saying.

Paul B: —to just to enjoy life together to some degree together as well, then you’re really not a part of that community. You’re just an observer. And yes, I think we can be anesthetized to the need for real community through the use of social media. And so we need to be wise and use it as a tool that’s appropriate to do certain things but to not use it as a total replacement for genuine community.

Paul P: I think one of the things in social media, that a lot of don’t necessarily recognize is that you don’t have any of the nonverbal cues that you can walk into a room and sense that somebody is not having a good day or is having a fantastic day. And you don’t have any way to perceive that in social media. And so it’s almost like a vacuum between us. And again, it’s not bad to send a message from one person to another or from me to the ether and everyone sees it that says, “I like Golden Retrievers.” Okay. It’s like that’s not a bad thing there. But if I don’t have a situation where people are perceiving my joys and sorrows, I’m missing out on a lot, I guess.

The Presence of a Person

Paul B: Yeah. I mean, you could analyze it from many avenues. The communication bandwidth is limited, as you were saying. So that’s certainly true. And there’s other media that’s true as well. The telephone, which we use quite a lot, doesn’t allow us to see each other. It’s a little bit better than text because you can hear in a voice. You can hear tones and cadence and all those things. So, it’s limited. Social media is limited in its bandwidth, but there’s other things that it can’t touch on, beyond just its ability to communicate or not communicate. I think there’s a huge statement in presence when we’re with somebody physically. We’re there. We’re there in their own space. We’re eating a meal together. We’re there physically. There’s an implication of friendship commitment. And there’s just something that it does for us in our relationships what we have experiences together where we’re near each other. We — I don’t know — go hang gliding together or something, you know. We’re going to talk about that for the rest of our lives. “Remember that time we went hang gliding?”

It wasn’t just that you went hang gliding, and then I went hang gliding a week later.

Paul P: We texted about it?

Paul B: “Oh, we both did that. And let’s talk about it.” No.

“We went hang gliding together. And, you know, I heard you when you, when you screamed, you know. And, I saw you. You put that landing. And then did you see the seagulls flying around?” You know, whatever it is. There’s a relationship, a fellowship in a sense in that activity together. So that’s way beyond just communication.

And then I think with that is just the life commitment of walking through life together and knowing that this person is here for me, you know. I mean, there are different levels of commitment. So within marriage, that’s a pretty high level. But the church is like a family. Family, that’s a very high level. Church is compared to a family in scripture. And so that community, the intension is that there be this life on life experience. And so social media can never do that.

Paul P: Alone it can’t do that. But I think it can enhance?

Paul B: Yeah. It’s a tool. And when it’s used appropriately, it can be very helpful.

King of Grace Church – How it Began

Paul P: Cool. So now, how long have you been doing this? You’re a pastor at a church, King of Grace in Haverhill, Mass. And we talked about you started out in Methuen and then moved into Haverhill. And so how long has this church been in existence?

Paul B: We celebrated our 15th anniversary in September actually. And I left to be trained as a pastor 17 years ago.

Paul P: So you didn’t just say one day, “I’m going to be a pastor,” and just say, “I’m open up a church.” That you actually planned and methodically went through this? Or was it “we’re going to drive to Boston?”

Paul B: Yeah. No, I didn’t want to do anything that crazy. It was a process and certainly there were other things that went on leading up to the decision to leave my job. So it was a smooth transition in the sense that it wasn’t like all of a sudden I went from doing nothing related to being a pastor to now being going off to be trained. I had been doing a lot of pastoral sorts of things up to that point. So when it was time to make the decision, it made sense.

And then I went to be trained at a pastors’ college within our denomination that has an accelerated program. So a lot of the elements you get over two or three years in seminaries, you get at this pastors’ college in nine or ten months.

Paul P: Oh, I see. Okay.

Paul B: It’s very intensive. It’s with pastors and the teachers, you get to interact quite a bit. A lot of mentoring that goes on. So it was a great. For me, it was nine month. And then I went into an internship to be further mentored and prepared. That was 11 months. And then from that I formed a team, worked with a team, and we all together started the church in 2002.

Paul P: So 15 years we’re coming up on. Are you where you expected? Not as far? Further? Or did you have no expectations or…?

Paul B: I’m grateful to be where we are. I’ll put it that way. Our church is about 200 folks that are there on a Sunday. In New England, that never happens, but that’s about how many folks we have and wonderful people and get into a lot of wonderful things.

When I started out, I was new at it and I planned out where I wanted to be. I had a one-year, five-year, a 10-year, and a 20-year plan. And so at this point, I think we’re at about the five year mark.

Paul P: Oh, really.

Paul B: Yeah.

Paul P: In what dimension? Numbers or building or…

Paul B: Multiple, multiple aspects. So, the numbers were related to just what I hoped would be the overall maturity of the church. I wanted it to be a church that was full of people that were fairly mature in their Christian worldview and the practice of that, a church that was effective in the community, reaching out to the community, being a helpful part of the community influencing people with the truth of Christianity. Also a church that was sending out other church plants. So there was a bunch of metrics that I had along those different time lines. So yeah, the five year would be inclusive of all those things. So, yeah.

Paul P: So it sounds like your expectations were higher than — dare I say — what God’s were?

Paul B: Yeah. And that’s fine with me. I think it’s better to, to aim high and then be content with what you get, so, rather than aim low and not get where you should be. So I still aim high. But it it’s tempered with some years of experience at this point.

The Main Thing – Wrapping it All Up

Paul P: Right. So, I guess just in closing, what would you sort of want to sum up? We’ve had a fairly meandering discussion here. But what would you want to say as a sort of summary of what we’ve talked about. And again, we’ve got lots of different people all over the world listening to this. They’re not all Bostonians who have a Boston worldview, which everybody in Boston thinks it’s the center of the universe, just if you don’t know that. So what would you what to sort of wrap up and put a bow on? The main things. Making sure the main thing is the main thing or remains the main thing, I think?

Paul B: Yeah. Wow. That’s a good question. We’ve talked about a lot of things. I think one of the big ideas in what we’re talking about is that we’re made by a good and great, incredibly interesting, creative, powerful, loving, good, and holy God. We’re made by him in his image, and he wants us to live that out in all it’s meant to be. But we need help with that. Left to ourselves, we’ve failed and will continue to fail. And in his care for us, in his goodness, he got involved, became a man, provided in the life and death and resurrection of Christ, a way for us to be reconciled with him and to start to fulfill what we’re made for, to image him, and all that that means. In all the different dimensions of creation and humanity. That’s offered to us. It’s a gracious gift. It’s a free gift, and we simply need to receive it, believe it, live in it, and I think live it out in the context of a community of faith, Christian faith. And I think it makes all the difference.

And I’d love to talk more and more, just about how it applies to every area of life. Again, I love science and wish I could do science and be a pastor. But, I know that worldview and that truth of being made in the image of God has a huge impact on how we do science, what we do science. And similarly with technology, with everything it connects.

So if I had to sum up, I’d say it’s about that big idea, being made by God in his image, and made for something that’s pretty fantastic. But we need help. We need him.

Paul P: Cool, very cool. Wow. We’ve been talking with Paul Buckley who’s the lead pastor at King of Grace Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts. All of his contact information and some of the resources we mentioned will be in the show notes, if you’re interested. And we appreciate your time in listening, and thank you for listening to the Edge of Innovation. Talk to you next time.

Exploring Christianity With Pastor Paul Buckley

On episode 56 of The Edge of Innovation, we are talking with Pastor Paul Buckley of King of Grace Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts.

Show Notes

The King Of Grace Church Website

Follow Paul Buckley on Twitter

Paul Buckley’s Blog

Follow King of Grace Church on Facebook

Listen to Paul Buckley’s recent sermons

Find King of Grace Church on Soundcloud to listen to more sermons from Pastor Paul Buckley and other King of Grace pastors

Link to SaviorLabs’ Free Assessment

Sections

What Is a Church?
A Faith Community
An Engineer Becomes a Pastor
Planting a Church
What Do People Look for in a Church?
A Christian Worldview
What is Christianity?
What is Sin?
Knowing Right from Wrong

Exploring Christianity with Pastor Paul Buckley

Paul P: Hello, everyone. I’m Paul Parisi, and today I’m here with Paul Buckley who is a lead pastor at King of Grace Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts. Welcome, Paul.

Paul B: Thanks. Great to be here.

Paul P: Good to have you. As we’ve talked about the Edge of Innovation, we talk about a lot of eclectic, different things and we really want to focus on the people as opposed to what they’re specifically doing technically. We’re a technical company, Savior Labs, but all of this technology is built to do something. And we’re not really focusing on the technology here. We’re talking about what we’re doing and what we’re hoping to accomplish.

What Is a Church?

So, I guess, King of Grace is a church, it’s that fourth word. It says King of Grace Church.

Paul B: Yeah, we’re a church.

Paul P: So what does that mean? I mean, there’s a lot of churches on a lot of corners. We’re in New England. It seems like they’re everywhere. Is it just an ordinary church? Is there something ordinary about church? Tell me about what a church is?

Paul B: Yeah, good question. That’s a word we use, and I think we don’t necessarily think about what it means. Really, it’s a community of people who are committed to faith, to their Christian faith, and they’re committed to one another in living together, walking out that faith, and serving the community. In some ways, a church should be a community within a community. So churches are all around us. They’re in multiple communities. But really, the historic idea, the biblical idea of a church is it’s really a faith community. It’s a faith community that lives within a community to be an influence for good on that broader community as well.

Paul P.: Okay. So you’ve used this word faith a couple of times. I don’t want to get too far afield here. But what is faith? Is it a wish, a hope? I’m not sure. What is faith? Give me a high-level understanding of it.

A Faith Community

Paul B: Yeah, well, there would be two aspects of faith when the word faith is used. It can be, you know, what you believe — the particular things you believe are true. It also is a body of belief as well. So when I say a faith community, I mean it is a community of people that believe something, but it’s really it’s a community defined by a body of belief. It’s a worldview really. I would argue that we all have faith. We all have a faith. We all have a worldview, and that influences who we are, how we interact, what we do with our lives.

So a church is a faith community. It’s a community defined by a body of belief, a particular worldview.

Paul P: Okay. So now we’re talking about…you’ve mentioned churches and faith, and so there’s lots of different churches out there. There’s like the Catholic Church, Mormons, Buddhist churches, Jewish churches, you know. What do those differentiations and how do they… I’m not asking for a sort of detailed analysis of every faith that’s out there, but how do you, at a high level, from a social point of view, talk about those?

Paul B: Yeah. Good question. The word church is usually used in the Christian context. So if you’re speaking of Jewish churches, rough equivalence of a church, it would be a temple, a temple community. Other as well — Buddhist temple and so forth.

So when we say church, there’s an implication there that we’re speaking of a Christian-faith community. And certainly we can look in society, and we see all sorts of faith communities and they may call themselves churches or associations, temple communities, so forth.

Paul P: Why isn’t it called a club?

Paul B: Good, good question. Yeah, well, a club would be different. Generally speaking, a club is an association of people who have a common interest, and they usually limit their activities to those particular interests. So, they’re generally narrower interests in a club. So a tennis club. What do you do there? Well, you play tennis. So generally, that’s how we use “club.” A church, faith community really is more holistic. That body of belief that we hold together is not a very narrow interest. It’s a very broad worldview, and there are commitments. There are lifestyles that follow from that worldview. So it would be much broader. And that’s why we wouldn’t want to use the word club because that would imply that somehow it’s maybe more casual and narrower in scope and so forth.

An Engineer Becomes a Pastor

Paul P: Okay. Well I’ve got a bunch more questions on that, but we are too far afield. So you’re Paul Buckley. Now I know that you have a Ph.D. So did you go to divinity school?

Paul B: No, I didn’t. I went to Johns Hopkins, which, actually, Johns Hopkins has a divinity school there, but I didn’t get my Ph.D. in divinity.

Paul P: So what was it? What was it in?

Paul B: In science. A Ph.D. in material science.

Paul P: So that doesn’t sound conventional. I mean, I imagine most people who are — I guess I’ll use the term — clergy. I guess you could be a monk or a priest or a pastor or a lot of different terms for that. Most of them don’t get there by going to school for material sciences. Is that true?

Paul B: At least not immediately.

Paul P: Yeah.

Paul B: True. Yeah. I didn’t get my Ph.D. merely to be a pastor. Certainly it has implications. I think it has a lot of implications in pastoring. But I was a research engineer for 14 years for the government and loved what I did, loved my work. And I did a lot of work that made a Ph.D. really important and really helpful.

Paul P: Okay. What could have happened that said, “Okay. I’m going to take this” — I don’t know — “lucrative career” — an engineer — “and go into this other business or career becoming a pastor”?

Paul B: Yeah. Sometimes I ask myself that question. It was a process, and it was a long process in some ways. Though I have to say, from very early on, I had an interest in Christian leadership and trust in a sense of call, obligation that I think, was more than just my bright idea to serve in that capacity, though I always thought of it as really being a lay leader of some sort. That’s what my personal preference, in some ways, would be.

Paul P: Okay. And by lay leader, what do you mean?

Paul B: Yeah. I mean by that someone who’s not full-time, you know, ordained clergy or really not ordained is what we mean when we say “lay.” So not being an ordained pastor, not being full-time. And so my expectation was just to serve in a capacity where, you know, I was a leader in the church, not necessarily a pastoral leader.

Paul P: Okay. But something must have… I mean, that’s a pretty radical departure from saying, “I’m going to be an engineer working in a job” — you were in a career — to saying, “I’m going to throw that all away.”

Paul B: Yeah. Well, it felt like that at times, and certainly when I told my dad initially, he thought that. Yeah. Good question. Again, it was a process. And so my desire to serve led me to serve in multiple capacities. And as I did that over time, I found myself being fairly effective in pastoral-type roles.

Paul P: Interesting.

Paul B: And it wasn’t necessarily planning to do that. At times I was, and, you know, toyed with the idea. But by the time the opportunity opened up, at that point in my life, I wasn’t planning on it. And I was, to a degree, effective in that role. And that wasn’t just me. It was those that I helped, those that I served, those that were over me — my pastors. Basically, there was a choir of folks saying we see a pastor here. And, I was probably the last guy to say, I guess you’re right. But it became pretty obvious, and I had to make a decision. I had to make a decision what the best stewardship of my gifts in my life would look like. And I would love, and still would love, to be in science. But you can’t really do both, at least the particulars that I chose.

So as I thought through that, I thought through what is responsible, and really, behind all that, a sense of what is God doing, you know, when I look at how I’m being used, and I look at the opportunities; I look at the needs; when I pray, when I talk to others, so forth and so on. You know, what do I think God wants me to do? Where’s my purpose? And not that it was some sort of lesser purpose to do science — I would have loved to continue — but there was a strong sense, well, I think this is what I ought to do. I think I do, in a sense, add value, a particular value, in this role. And so that’s kind of what led me to become a pastor and to become a church-planting pastor.

Planting a Church

Paul B: Okay. Now wait a minute. So you became a pastor, but then you said…what’s this church planting? I mean, there’s lots of churches everywhere. Explain what you mean by church planting.

Paul B: Yeah. A church plant is really a church, a new church, that’s started. Every church that exists, at some point, was a church plant. In the West, we’re kind of used to established churches. So we don’t think in terms of church plants because they were planted a long time ago. But they were planted. So the history of Christianity is a history of church planting. Jesus gave his followers this commission. He told me to go out and make disciples and affect the whole world. And really, the pattern in scripture and the pattern in Christian history is through churches, through local faith communities being started in areas growing and becoming more like Christ in their belief and practice and then being a positive influence in the community where they are.

Paul P: So you decided to — I imagine with other people’s encouragement — plant a church. And where did you do that? Is that in Haverhill where you are now?

Paul B: The church in Haverhill is the one we planted. Originally, we were in Methuen. So we were, at the time before we started the church, before we planted — and we did this with a team. It wasn’t just us, my wife and I. It was a whole team. Before that, we were in Maryland, though we’re from the Boston area. My wife is from Haverhill actually. We were in Maryland, and then we were in the Philly area. And so, from there, we came up and started the church, and as we worked with an organization, our denomination, and others as well, we made a decision to start something in the Merrimack Valley. And so originally, we thought Methuen would be a good place, and it was in many ways. We picked Methuen, and grew.

And over time we were kind of drawing people from a regional area, a fairly broad region, and we are to some degree still doing that. But we started to realize we were going to be more effective if we concentrate on a particular city of town, not to the exclusion of anything else, but to major on a particular city or town. And through a number of circumstances — one being that a wonderful building opened up in Haverhill, others being that everything we were doing in Haverhill was very successful, very well received. And also that, of any particular town, Haverhill was the most common one where people lived in our church. So all that kind of led us to locate in Haverhill in 2009.

What Do People Look for in a Church?

Paul P: And so now, I imagine people come to church and go from church. It’s something to do on Sunday, I guess. But what do you think people — families, individuals — are looking for? Why are they going to churches? I mean, we have so many different social opportunities now. Not that that’s too different. I mean, you know, years ago we had the Elks Club and the, whatever, the Square Dancing Club and all those different clubs. Is, is church different than that? I mean, you’ve mentioned it sort of is because there’s a common faith. But what are they looking for? Is it where I get my needs met? Or what do you think it is?

Paul B: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think initially, there can all sorts of thoughts there. And, and we as a church are prepared to welcome people coming from all different motivations. But I think long-term, to stay a part of a church, stay a part of our church and many others, there’s something more going on than just a particular interest, a club-like interest. Because there people who come because they want to have a spiritual experience for their children. They think that’s a positive thing. So they want to expose them to that. And that’s fine. That’s a fine motivation. But I don’t think that motivation is going to sustain someone’s involvement in the church long, long-term. They might come just because they like what we do in the community, and they want to check us out and see what’s going on.

But long-term, really the things that keep us and lead us onward are, are I think, more substantial than those particular interests. It’s really the idea of a robust worldview that shapes our lives in a positive way makes a real difference in how we live, how we relate to others, what we think about ourselves, how we understand God, and the choices we make in life, really, in every arena. It’s about a comprehensive worldview that propels us, that gives us something bigger than, I think, we can get in all those other interests. So clubs are great. I’m involved in clubs and so forth, but you’re not going to find something robust and comprehensive, define your life on a larger scale from those particular clubs and interests.

And I think, you know, it’s something to think about. Sometimes we can affiliate with a lot of different organizations along different interests but never have something that kind of gets deeper, gets to the heart, like, why am I here? Who am I? What should I be doing? You know, what is this about? Is it, is it worth something? Is there a purpose here? Those are really important questions that, I think if we don’t address them, they’re just going to be there, and they’ll nag us, and there with be a sense of disease, of just being ill at ease and so forth if that question doesn’t get answered.

A Christian Worldview

Paul P: Interesting. So as you were talking about that, I sort of thought of sort of different silos. Like I like photography and woodworking. So I could go to a photography club or a woodworking club or read magazines on photography or woodworking or computers. I love computers. And I could be really good at computers, but that doesn’t really inform photography. Or it doesn’t cross those barriers. And so, I guess it’s more holistic. Would you go there?

Paul B: Yeah. I think your, your worldview does influence your view of those different silos, and a Christian worldview is a robust one. I think it has an answer, and.it has truth. It has a lifestyle that affects all the different silos. So, a Christian should be involved in these different interests. It’s part of what it is to be human and to thrive as a human. But being part of a church helps you understand, have the perspective, the reinforcement and, and the fulfillment that, that God intended in all those activities.

What is Christianity?

Paul P: So, I mean, so you, you’ve used the term Christian several times. And what’s the simple definition of, of that? And how does it differ from other religions? Because I think that everybody — certainly in the 21st century world would say they’re all equal. You believe whatever you want. We have an almost overwhelming encouragement to believe whatever you want, as long as you are true to yourself, you’ll be fine. So is that part of Christianity? Is that an extrapolation of Christianity? What is Christianity, I guess?

Paul B: Good, good question. Yeah. When we talk about being a Christian or having Christian faith, there are different aspects of what we mean. First there’s people that are nominal Christians, and what I mean by that is they take the name of Christian, and they like aspects of that and I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem. But historic and biblical Christianity is really following Christ. That’s probably the simplest definition. If you’re a Christian, you’re a follower of Christ.

Paul P: A follower of Christ. Okay. He’s not alive today. He’s not walking around. I can’t follow them with my car. What do you mean by that?

Paul B: Good question. Yeah. Well, I think he is alive today. That’s fundamental to following him, that we believe he is alive. We believe that the accounts of his life contained in the scripture are true and that from what we read and know, he did die, but then he rose again. He died on a cross. He suffered, died for sins to make atonement for sin so that we could be forgiven in him and have life in him. And then he rose again from the dead, and he ascended into heaven, and he’s coming back. Those are basic Christian truths that are contained in scripture, have been believed for thousands of years. So a Christ follower, one who follows Christ is one who follows a Christ who has died for sin and rose again and is alive.

What is Sin?

Paul P: So what that he died for sin? What does that mean? What is sin? I mean, because nowadays, it’s like do whatever you feel is good. Right? I mean, we define what’s good a bad by our own selves right now. So he died for sin. Can you flesh that out? What does that actually mean?

Paul B: Well, sin is not a happy word for us, really, is it? We don’t like to talk about it. It’s not mentioned much.

Paul P: So yes and no. But I don’t think anybody that can be reasonably intellectually honest about things, there’s this thing called sin, which you can define any way you want. You can give me your definition of it, and it’s neither. People don’t like to talk about it. Why do you think about people don’t want to talk about it? I mean, somebody has to talk about it. It’s like saying there’s no water in the lake. It’s like, well, we don’t talk about that. But the reality doesn’t change. So sorry to interrupt, but if there’s this thing called sin, and you’re saying that Jesus died for sin, what does that equation mean? What does that actually mean?

Paul B: Yeah. Well, we don’t like to talk about it because it’s uncomfortable, but we always deal with it. We see it around us. When someone does something wrong, we react to it. We know, really, what’s wrong and what’s right, to a great degree. Sin is really doing the wrong thing or failure to do the right thing. So we know that. We live with that.

Paul P: So is it that simple?

Paul B: Yes, it is.

Paul P: So you’re saying I shouldn’t do the wrong things. If I’m being intellectually honest, and I don’t like what somebody is wearing, I shouldn’t kill them. I mean, I’m being extremely outrageous here. But where does that come from, that notion that it would be wrong? And I think 10 out of 10 people would say, “That was wrong to kill that person. Why did you kill that person?”

“I didn’t like their shoes.” Well, that’s even worse wrong. So where does that come from?

Knowing Right from Wrong

Paul B: Yeah. That’s a great question. I think it comes from who we are. Fundamentally part of what it is to be human, what we would say, we’re made in the image of God. We’re made like God in the sense that we understand about people, we understand relationships, we understand ethics and so I think it’s inherent. Even if someone were not to grant me that, I would say it’s always very logical. The Golden Rule — do to others as you would have them do to you —and then there’s different versions of that, of course. It makes sense because you’re not the only or central being. When you start to acknowledge other identities around you — you know, “What right do I have over them? I should treat them as I would treat myself or want to be treated.”

Paul P: Okay that sounds reasonable.

Paul B: And that’s a biblical truth, but it’s also a logical truth that you see across all different worldviews really. But I would say it’s more than that. It is that, but it’s more. I think it is part of what it is to be made in the image of God too. I think we have inherent understanding of right and wrong and it’s built in.

Paul P: Well, let me stop you there. We’ll get back to that whole concept here of this.

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