Tag: community

Why I Started a Church in New England With Jacob Young

On Episode 104 of The Edge of Innovation, we’re talking with Pastor Jacob Young about why he started a church in New England.

Sections

Introduction
The Journey of Planting a Church in New Hampshire
Innovation & Business: A Non-Profit
Moving To New England
Rejecting the Bible Belt Culture
Why New England and Not Philadelphia?
The Presumption of The Bible Belt Culture
The Presumption of the Christian Culture
Using Verbiage & Language that Everybody Understands
Conclusion
More Episodes
Show Notes

Why I Started a Church in New England With Jacob Young

Introduction

Paul: So, welcome, Jacob Young.

Jacob: Thank you.

Paul: From the Great White North. Not Canada. Not Vermont.

Jacob: Not quite, no.

Paul: New Hampshire.

Jacob: Yeah, we’re in God’s Country up here, you know.

Paul: So how long have you been there?

Jacob: We’ve been here five and a half years now. As we’re getting close to the end of October, there’s always — It’s that every other year we get a snowstorm, so we’re going to have —

Paul: Oh.

Jacob: I’m curious as to whether that’s going to happen.

Paul: Great. I’m glad you brought that up. Thanks.

Jacob: Yeah.

Paul: It’s going to happen. It’s inevitable, but that’s true.

Jacob: Yeah.

The Journey of Planting a Church in New Hampshire

Paul: So, five and half years ago, you embarked on a journey to the Great White North of New Hampshire. But what was your idea of this journey?

Jacob: Well, we moved up here to plant a church here in Manchester with King of Grace down in Haverhill. So, we took over a small group, and we had intended that to become a church plant. It’s taken about five years. But we’re a fully-fledged, card-carrying church now. And I think when we moved here, we were just really — Like, I enjoy New England culture. I enjoy the frankness of my friends here in the city, and I know that’s off-putting to some people. I just prefer the directness of it.

So, yeah. It’s been a, a fantastic experience of being here, and our boys are New Hampshirites.

Paul: Wow.

Jacob: Yeah, I don’t know if that’s what you were asking about, but —

Innovation & Business: A Non-Profit

Paul: I think so. I mean, we try and talk about innovation and business. But, you know, business is about having an idea and producing a product that satisfies a need and really, building the systems that deliver that product to the — not necessarily the purchasers, but the consumers of that product.

And, I think that a lot of what you’re doing may qualify as both innovation and business. It’s not perfectly business, because it’s a non-profit. It’s not built for profit, and a lot of people might stumble over that.

But the point of it being that what every institution is doing is trying to perpetuate some values and some mission.

Moving To New England

Paul: And so, you decided to — Well, let’s just roll back a little bit. So, are you from New England?

Jacob: No, yeah. My, my dad is military, and so I grew up moving all over the place so I’m, like, generally American. You know, I’m not from one place.

And, my wife, she grew up in the South, with her mom being a native to London, so she had a bit of a Deep South. She grew up going to visit her grandparents in London, growing up, during the summers, and so she kind of grew up in two different cultures, I guess.

Paul: Yeah, I would say so. I mean, those are huge contrasts.

Jacob: Yeah. Although, apparently, I’ve heard that the Southern accent is probably the truer form of the 17th and 16th century English accent. So, potentially, they were a bit closer together in terms of dialects than we might otherwise associate.

Paul: Maybe. But if you were in the South and quoted that in a dark alley in the middle of the night, it wouldn’t get you any points, or vice versa if you were in London in a dark alley and said that.

Jacob: Sure. Yeah, I’m not sure if I’d get out alive, so that’s why I say it in the comfort of my office on the phone.

Paul: Right. Exactly, yes, this being broadcast all over the world. Yeah, that’s a good idea.

So, how did your path end up in New England, let alone New Hampshire?

Jacob: So, my wife and I, we met in high school, and she, being much more brilliant and smart than I am — I’m normal brilliant and normal smart; she’s much more brilliant and much more smart — went to Wake Forest University in North Carolina.

We were dating through college, and we got connected with the family churches that we wanted to be a part of, and so, out of the gate, we just were like, “You know what, we’re done with, kind of, the Bible Belt culture in the South.” And so, we wanted to move out to the Northeast, and so we moved to Philly to be a part of a church in the Philadelphia area.

Rejecting the Bible Belt Culture

Paul: Let me have you pause there for a second. You made a pretty big statement, “We were done with the Bible Belt culture.”

Jacob: Sure, yeah.

Paul: I’m sure that every person — certainly in America — can identify with that either positively if you live in the Bible Belt, or south of it, or negatively, if you live north of it. You can at least leap to what that might mean. And you went to Philadelphia, which is — Generally, it’s in the North. I mean, it’s definitely in the north; from New Hampshire, it’s in the south, but how do you contrast that? What was the thing, the real nugget of what was that that you were moving away from, for some reason?

Jacob: Sure. And I don’t mean that in a, necessarily, a denigration dynamic.

Paul: No, definitely.

Jacob: It was just to make a contrast, I guess. So, some of it is, I grew up in a more, — in terms of church culture, and I realize it’s a subset of American culture. I grew up in the United Methodist church, a moderate-to-more-progressive side of the spectrum.

I got my degree in philosophy, and the English literature stuff that I got my degree in was half Old English and half postmodern theory, so the two ends of the spectrum, I guess.

I was very comfortable being around my non-Christian friends. Not as some sort of charity case, but I genuinely enjoyed their friendship and company. They had honest and genuine questions, and they were self-consciously who they were. They were an agnostic, or they were whatever. They were self-consciously, “This is my belief structure.” I’d disagreed with them, obviously, but they would have a self-awareness of who they were.

My experience beyond my non-Christian friends within that university setting is that the Bible Belt, generally, is kind of pervaded by a very generally, “I’m a Christian,” very surfacey dynamics to what that means, but there’s not a self-awareness of one’s belief structures or how they operate with engaging in the world. And I think that there’s a presumption in this in the Bible Belt culture that going to church is a good thing and that that makes you a better person. Those may be, certainly, morally true dynamics but at a cultural level, it tends to be a bit surface. Maybe you could just use other words that might be a little more on point on that.

Why New England and Not Philadelphia?

Jacob: But in terms of the North, certainly, Philadelphia is on the southern end of the Northeast. It’s technically outside the Mason–Dixon line, and so we appreciated that Christianity was not a presumed part of the culture — even in Philadelphia which is, maybe, more religiously-minded than New England, especially Northern New England. And that if somebody was going to say they were a Christian or that they weren’t a Christian, there is a little bit more self-awareness and cultural dynamics where it was not so presumptive that, “Well, we’re a Christian community.”

So, that was, I think, some of the emphasis for Michelle and I. I just get hives around, like —

Paul: Hives.

Jacob: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: Hives are all — Okay, go ahead. I want you to walk into this one.

The Presumption of The Bible Belt Culture

Jacob: The presumption of the Bible Belt culture. Like my folks still live down in the Pensacola, Florida area. It’s funny. We went and visited them. This is maybe an example of the differences. We went to a coffee shop. Michelle and I were down visiting my folks in Pensacola. It was on our anniversary, so we didn’t have any kids with us.

So, we went to the coffee shops to, kind of, sit and read, and, you know, be adults without children hanging on us, and across the way from us in the coffee shop was this very large table of about ten young women, you know, 20s, 22, obviously college students, and they were not only doing a Bible study, but just out loud praying for each other. And it struck me. Like, that is so strange. And here I am. Like, I’m a pastor, and, you know, I like the Bible, and I want people to pray. I just, I had this experience of, like, that would never happen in New Hampshire. Like that, just not showy. They were being very respectful, but it was still a moment where I was like, “Oh, I’m from New Hampshire, where spiritual dynamics are not as presumed to be a part of the culture.”

Paul: So, I want to belabor this a little bit. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Jacob: Yeah. I don’t think it’s inherently a bad thing, for sure. I would say that there is a presumption to the public’s face that — It seems to me that evangelicals at times have a presumption to have their voice heard within the public sphere merely by the sake that they are evangelicals.

Paul: Mm hmm.

Jacob: And, so, rather than having merited it or gained it by the trust of the folks around them by the life lived among their neighbors and contact. So, I’m very overt with my, you know, “I’m a Christian. I’m a pastor.” I talk to people about Jesus all the time, but, so that could be said, “Well, am I presuming a place within the general culture?” I hope not.

But I guess, the way in which it can be used to bolster a sense of rightness or superiority, is maybe a loaded term, would be the negative connotation to that. So, yeah, I mean, not inherently right or wrong, but the way in which it’s oriented can certainly have a dynamic that could be right or wrong.

The Presumption of the Christian Culture

Paul: Now I want to redouble my effort here. What would your recommendation be — if you could be so bold — of how somebody from the Bible Belt, or the Bible Underwear, Shorts, if we go south-er, Socks, the Bible Socks. What would you recommend they do? because this is a critical thing that’s going on in America, let alone the world, is how do we actualize what we believe, regardless of where you fall in what spectrum. What’d you recommend?

Jacob: Yeah. Maybe this is a simple answer, but I think the way to combat the dynamic, I guess, in play within the Bible Belt culture that I would say is, maybe a negative dynamic, is a presumption of a Christian culture that assumes everybody else is playing on the same field, that they’re playing with the same terms, that they understand what you’re talking about. I wonder if it would be a helpful way of addressing some of that and correcting some of the Bible Belt culture if people were to ask the question of themselves, “Do I know who my literal neighbors are, and do they know that I care about them?”

Now, the way that I would confront a Bible Belt culture is my neighbors tend to get redefined as “whoever I like,” which sometimes is folks at church, folks from work, and there is a certain sense of presumed categories. You know who the pastors are. You know certain religious terms. You know how to navigate the Bible. You know certain Bible stories. That is just common knowledge.

For example, we had somebody visit our church a few years ago, and he was preaching for the church, and he made a reference. He said, “We live in a Genesis 3 world,” in a sermon. And to somebody from the Bible Belt culture, or a maybe from a more insulated Christian context, I understand what that phrase means, but I know that my neighbors, who not only have they never been to church, their parents never went to church. They would have absolutely no idea what the phrase “Genesis 3” is. They don’t even know what the Book of Genesis is, let alone “Is 3.0?” Is this the third Book of Genesis? I guess there are three Genesis books?

Paul: Right.

Jacob: What does that “three” mean? And so, there’s a presumption about that statement that is — Again, I’m kind of drilling down on a specific to kind of make the case. And I’d say it’s probably generally true with American evangelicals and in general, not solely, Bible Belt culture. When Jesus says to us, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” I think the controlling factor in that is, does my neighbor know that I know them and care about them and love them on their terms? Not necessarily that I agree with them, but on terms that they would understand.

Paul: Right.

Using Verbiage & Language that Everybody Understands

Jacob: And so, if I’m using cultural verbiage or language or assumptions or association that they have absolutely no… Like, if I told my neighbors right now, like, “Oh, there’s a big controversy around this trinitarian issue going on within the Church right now, and I’m really reading a lot about it.” It would just be absolute gibberish to them, you know.

Paul: Right. It’s technical.

Jacob: Yeah, and it’s certainly myopic. Yes, so I think that the correction — or maybe big question – for the Bible Belt context, is less “How do you stop being Southern.” And I don’t want you to stop being Southern. I love Southern hospitality. But I don’t know if somebody’s being nice to me for whatever reason. That’s maybe my New England cynicism coming out at this point. It’s in the way in which I orient towards the world. I’m sorry?

Paul: What do you want?

Jacob: Yeah. Is the association that you’re making with somebody, presuming that Christianity is in power and everybody must adhere to it, or is there a sense in which I want to just simply understand who somebody is?

Paul: Well, I think, I think you’re bringing up a great point, I think one that could be — really benefit both the Republican and Democratic parties right now, is there seems to be this incredible factionalism going on. And I don’t know if that’s really the right word, but it seems like neither side is doing anything to win the other side’s heart.

Jacob: Yeah, and I think even for business context, I think that it just happens when you’re in an intensive reinforcing context, that you are not inclined to think very clearly about the world that somebody else you’re engaging with lives in.

So, my brother is a mechanic in the Coast Guard, and he will use all of these phrases and words. I have no idea what any of them mean, and I can’t even repeat what any of them are, because they just did not register to me. And, I feel the same way at times when I’m engaging… I’ve done work with others as well, where you used the phrase “SEO,” and I’m like, “Okay, I know what that means.” Nobody else that I’m engaging with, even a client that I’m engaging with may not understand what that phrase means.

Paul: Right, right. Or they may think they know. That might be even worse.

Jacob: Yeah. They may think they know. SEO is not — I’m trying to think of a horrible example…

Paul: Yeah.

Jacob: So, I’m not sure if that’s necessarily a unique Bible Belt culture dynamic, but I think that it’s a human condition factor that we tend to drill down. And whatever culture reinforces our values, we tend to double down on that, whether that’s Republican or Democrat, Christian or not.

Paul: All right. Well, we’ve been talking with Jacob Young, a church-planting pastor in Manchester, New Hampshire, and we’ll have links to his website and some of his blogs.

Jacob: Yeah. Exciting times, and I’m enjoying it.

Paul: Cool. Thank you, sir.

Jacob: Yeah, Paul, thanks for your time.

More Episodes:

This is Part 1 of 3 of our conversation with Jacob Young! Stay tuned for Part 2, coming soon! We’ll be talking about how measure & identify the success of a non-profit organization!

Show Notes:

Is Church the Place for Innovation?

On Episode 99 of The Edge of Innovation, we’re talking with Mark Dever, the senior pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, about whether or not church is the place for innovation.

Sections

Innovation & Entrepreneurship in the Church
Is Church Run Like a Business?
What Does the Church Try To Accomplish?
How a Church Measures Their Success
Running an Organization
Training Up Other People
Is Church the Place For Innovation?
Starting Another Organization: Is It a Good Idea?
Encouragement For Entrepreneurs & Innovators
Five Sources To Find Out More About Christianity
Entrepreneurs & Faith
Conclusion
More Episodes
Show Notes

Is Church the Place for Innovation?

Innovation & Entrepreneurship in the Church

Paul: So, welcome to the Edge of Innovation. Today were talking with Mark Dever from Washington D.C.

So, do you think you’re an entrepreneur?

Mark: Well, in that I don’t mind trying new things, yeah. I think I’m an odd entrepreneur in the sense that I tend to be kind of traditional, conservative and extremely, by nature, content. So, I don’t feel restless or driven but I think I do work as hard as entrepreneurs tend to work and I think I’m very willing to try certain kinds of new things.

Paul: So, you’re mixing innovation in with entrepreneurship. And they’re very close and they’re very intermingled. Where do you think that there has been innovation in your work in the church? Or is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? It’s a fairly big subject.

Mark: I think I’ve worked to recover older, more biblical practices that have been largely lost in too many churches today and I’ve put those back in a modern church.

Paul: I see. Well that’s re-innovation, if you will. That’s cool. Do you think that there is room or opportunity to innovate in the church?

Mark: Yeah, sure. I think it can be done very badly and I think it can be done very well. But yes.

Paul: So, what’s some examples of that?

Mark: Well, badly would be if you change, if you innovate in the message. That would be a very bad thing. Badly would be if you create a kind of legalism where you’re requiring things that Jesus Christ did not require. Innovation could be a good thing if you are thinking of how to achieve your goals for your church in ways that haven’t been thought of before but work well and are consistent with what you think are good and true

Is Church Run Like a Business?

Paul: So, do you think that your church, do you run it like a business or is that fundamentally different?

Mark: Oh, I think it’s pretty fundamentality different. For example, when my salary is discussed by the elders, I literally leave the room so that I know nothing of those conversations. So yeah. We’re not trying to personally make money. We don’t profit in that sense.

Paul: Do you have customers?

Mark: People who are members of the church, who attend here, may think of themselves that way. We don’t use that as an image because it makes the customer, king and we understand that God is king and we understand that He has revealed in the scriptures what we should do, believe, have, and so we don’t think that’s just up to the individual’s choice.

What Does the Church Try To Accomplish?

Paul: I see. So, you have a thousand people coming to services. You are having an impact in their life and they’re having an impact in the people around them’s life. Do you think that the church, this particular church, accomplishes a lot and if so, what is the primary accomplishment that you would sort of extol?

Mark: That we try to be faithful to what God has revealed in Scripture and we try to help other people do that, to live in a life of love of God and love of neighbor as we should. So, that’s what we work for.

Paul: So, it’s very different, it’s a quality of life.

Mark: Right. It’s not a quantity. It’s not find me a metrical thing, like we can count it up.

Paul: Right.

Mark: So, for example Paul, our church has as a building, one large room that, I think, can seat about a thousand people. Well that room has been full for ten years so we’re not having growing number of members. Our number of members is kind of static at about nine hundred and fifty to a thousand. And what we try to do is, try to serve them as well as we can. We have people die or move on, so we’ve always got sort of more space for people who want to come in but success can’t be seen in our percentage of numerical increase each year.

How a Church Measures Success

Paul: I see. So how do you measure success?

Mark: Just by whether or not we evaluate ourselves as being faithful in being and doing those things that we’ve been called to be and to do.

Paul: I see. So, the teachings of the Bible, is what you’re saying. Do we fulfill those? Do we understand those?

Mark: If we have a husband who is abusing his wife and we do nothing to stop him from doing that, then we understand that we’re failing. If we act and stop him from doing that and we help the wife and we help the children, then we understand that as success.

Paul: I see. So, you actually get into the messiness of human interaction.

Mark: Very much so.

Running an Organization

Paul: Yeah, that’s very interesting. So again, revisiting the idea where you didn’t go to school for organizational management. You didn’t go to school for how to run an organization. You went to school for church history, I guess?

Mark: Yeah. Historical theology. Yeah.

Paul: How did you make that leap to running an organization?

Mark: Well, when you become the pastor of a church and then that church grows, you will end up having a certain amount of responsibility for that organization.

Paul: But is it just, you pulled it out of your hat or did you take a secret management class someplace or is it just that you were born with it?

Mark: I’m guessing born with it. It’s interesting. The seminary I went to did make us take what they called a leadership course, where we read books at the time by Ted Peters, folks like that. And I have to say all the stuff that we read… In Search of Excellence.

Paul: Yes. Tom Peters.

Mark: All the stuff I read seemed kind of obvious, so it didn’t seem unusually insightful to me. it seemed true, but I didn’t need somebody to tell me that kind of stuff.

Training Up Other People

Paul: So, what I’ve struggled with as being a leader is, well, I know it’s right, do it my way. And I’ve seen many leaders struggle with that. Has that been a problem with you?

Mark: Not so much. I’m a big believer in training up other people and then if you can get other people learning to do things, you’re multiplying.

Paul: Right. Okay.

Mark: So, I’d much rather have it done not quite as well but sufficiently well, and moving in a good direction by a new person, and then help them to learn how to train others also.

Is Church the Place For Innovation?

Paul: So, now, you have all of these members. Would the members say that your church is innovative? I guess you already sort of answered that question. And is a church the place to be innovative?

Mark: I think the fundamental answer to that is no.

Paul: Okay.

Mark: But you could misunderstand that. I think it’s fine if the church tries, you know, an new air conditioning system, a new PA system, to sing a new hymn. I think that’s fine. If you think the church needs to have new things like that in order to survive, I would say well that’s not true and I would say it’s basic marching orders have been laid down very clearly for thousands of years in Scripture and what we want to work at is to continue to be faithful and try to follow those instructions.

Starting Another Organization: Is It a Good Idea?

Paul: Now, you mentioned an organization 9Marks. Why did you start this? You have a church who is functioning well. Many times with business, you hear, “Focus focu,s focus!” And so, it’s very usually dangerous to take a tangent and go off and do something else because it dilutes tension and venture capitalists look at it and say, “No. Stop half of the things you’re doing and do the other half twice as well.”
So, you went off and started this thing called 9Marks. What was the impetus for that? What was the point? What was the problem you were trying to solve?

Mark: Well, it was actually some friends who started 9Marks kind of with me. It was more their idea to start an organization, the marks of a church, that is talking about are things that I had noted and I had taught and even written about. These friends thought, “Mark. You’re doing this well enough in this church, let’s try to reproduce some of these things you’re saying and doing and teaching.” You know kind of like a Harvard business review.

Paul: Oh, okay.

Mark: Best practices kind of stuff. Let’s share this with other pastors so they can see what’s going on and maybe develop resources that would help them improve their churches.

Paul: And has that gone the way you expected it? Better? Worse? When you started it, it sounded like you were a reluctant traveler. “Okay, you guys are interested in dong this, I’ll come along.” Is that fair or… and how has it worked out?

Mark: I think that’s fair. It’s gone well. It’s been around for twenty-one years. And yeah, if you go to the website 9marks.org, look on a church search map, you’ll find about four thousand churches in the U.S. that have affiliated themselves with this, saying they agree with these marks of a healthy church.

And we have produced lots of content for free, you’ll find on the website. And probably about sixty different titles, sixty different books of which I’ve only written, oh, five or ten of them. Not a lot of them, and most of those are being translated into many different languages around the world. Almost every week, I’ll receive some copies of some 9Marks title that’s been translated into – this last week, Polish. And you know, it just keeps going.

Encouragement For Entrepreneurs & Innovators

Paul: So, is there anything you’d like to say to would-be entrepreneurs or innovators or business people? Anything at all?

Mark: Yeah, just as a Christian, I think business is hugely important. It’s productive. It created wealth. It gives jobs to people. It helps people meaningfully organize their time to do things that help other people. So, I love business people, men and women. I love to see their creativity, their productivity, the blessing they are to others. So, as a pastor of a Christian church, I just couldn’t be more encouraged by men and women listening podcasts like yours Paul, and trying to get better doing what they do, because if they get better doing what they do, it’s going to help everyone around them. So, I’m super thankful for good business people.

Paul: Well, that could be a good oxymoron. Good business people.

Mark: Well you know what I mean. You know what I mean.

Five Sources To Find Out More About Christianity

Paul: No, I’m just saying, but it could be. Very much so.

So, let me go back. So, you’ve talked about Christianity, You’ve talked about what it is. I would imagine a lot of people listening to us don’t really know what Christianity really means. They may have a notion of it. Where would you direct them to be able to learn more about what you say Christianity is or what you believe Christianity is?

Mark: Okay, what I believe Christianity is. I’ll give you five sources you can go look at.

Talk to a good friend of yours who’s a Christian. That’s number one, a friend. Get him to explain it to you.

Number two, go find a good church near you and let them explain it to you.

Number three, grab a good book. I’ll mention two: C.S. Lewis, called “Mere Christianity” or Greg Gilbert, a book called “Who is Jesus?” So that’s C.S. Lewis, “Mere Christianity”, Greg Gilbert, “Who is Jesus?” These books would very briefly explain to you Christianity.

You could yourself pick up a copy of the Bible and start reading the Gospels about Jesus. I would encourage you to read Mark’s Gospel. It’s short. It’s the shortest of the Gospels. We think it may have been the earliest written.

And finally, I would tell you go to the 9Marks website and just look up, just type in the word “gospel”. Because that’s the basic message of Christianity. G-O-S-P-E-L. Just type in “gospel” and see what articles come up and read or listen to some of the resources you find there.

Paul: Okay, well, we’ll put all those links in the show notes so people don’t have to furiously write them down.

Mark: You could also put one of capbap.org, so if they want to hear any of my teaching, they are there for free.

Entrepreneurs & Faith

Paul: Excellent. What would you, if you were to meet with a would-be entrepreneur, has really no experience with faith, what would your conversation be like with one of them?

Mark: Well, it happens from time to time, I mean that’s not just hypothetical. One of the guys who helped us start 9Marks, actually gave us several hundred thousand dollars to get started. He was just a businessman who lived here, a few doors down and he just liked what he saw happening in this church. He thought if other churches became more like this, it would help communities they were in. So, he gave us money to try to help us get started.

So, conversations can vary a lot. They can have a personal interest in faith themselves, they can just like some of the things that we’re doing and want to be a part of it, so it varies a lot.

Conclusion

Paul: Very cool. Any other things you’d like to cover or talk about?

Mark: No, I mean, it’s been a good conversation.

Paul: Alright, well, we’ve been speaking with Mark Dever, the senior pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington D.C. and I guess you’re four blocks behind the supreme court building?

Mark: Exactly.

Paul: We’ve been talking about a church in Washington D.C. where Mark is the teaching pastor? Do you have a particular title?

Mark: Senior pastor.

Paul: Senior pastor. So, you’re old is what they’re saying?

Mark: I’m very old.

Paul: Oh my gosh. Well, did you actually get to meet Jesus?

Mark: After a manner of speaking, but not in the way you mean it, I think.

Paul: Okay. Well, we’ve had a good conversation and we’d love your feedback.

More Episodes:

This is Part 3 of 3 our interview with Mark Dever. If you missed part 1, you can listen to it here!

And if you missed part 2, you can listen to it here!

Show Notes:

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