Author: Hannah

Paul P: So you were, you’re a scientist. Not were. You are. And you’re a material scientist which is nontrivial. I mean, you know, it’s figuring out how things work and how they’re used in their extreme in some ways. Not just, oh, this is tape. You put it on something. It’s really stretching and understanding materials. I mean, before Post-It notes were invented, when Post-It notes were invented, they were a miracle. But a material scientist probably could have come up with that or would have been the type of person, and you were doing that in all sorts of different materials. So, I guess what I’m getting at is there was something there that wasn’t readily apparent. You know, Post-It notes was a failed experiment.

So now you were encouraged by the people around you, by your relationship with God, to go into ministry. I’ve always been struck by all the other countries in the world have minister of defense, minister of this, minister of that. And in America, we have secretary of defense.

So what does that mean to minister to people? So would you consider yourself a minister or a pastor, or are they different things?

Paul B: Well, minister is a title, and it connotes the idea of service. So, it’s a matter of protocol in some ways, what we call someone. Pastor literally means shepherd. In the scripture, you know, that’s what the role is called. So, I’m fine being called a minister. In our church and our group of churches, we typically don’t use the word minister. But I’m supposed to minister. I’m supposed to serve. I’m supposed to help people.

Paul P: So, help with what?

Paul B: Well, I help people in my role as a lead pastor.

Paul P: Do you come over and empty my trash.

Paul B: Sometimes.

Paul P: Are you serious?

Paul B: I’ve done all sorts of things in helping people. But that’s not the core of what I’m supposed to do — empty the trash. I need to be available to help people. A pastor’s called to really be like Christ. Really, all Christians are, but a pastor’s called to be like Christ in caring for others, shepherding people. Christ is the Good Shepherd, the ultimate shepherd. And pastors are seen as under shepherds. They’re shepherds that kind of are similar. So they’re to care of people.

So that metaphor of a shepherd and his flock is used in scripture quite a bit. It’s really the ancient, near-Eastern shepherd, not a Western shepherd. So the ancient near-Eastern shepherd lived with the flock. The flock knew him. He had names for all the sheep. He could speak to them, and he would lead them. He didn’t drive them. So he’d walk ahead to the next place, and they knew his voice. They’d stay close. He cared for them. And so that’s the image. A pastor is a leader who is integral to the flock. He’s part of the flock. He knows people. They know him. He leads in Christian truth. He leads in the application of that truth, coming alongside as someone who helps people. So there’s a degree of leadership. There’s a degree of assistance. There’s a degree of counseling and care that goes on. And a pastor is supposed to do that as part of a whole church.

So there are other people that come alongside and assist in many different roles, so you’re not by yourself in that but you’re kind of leading in that. So that’s kind of what I do.

What Does a Pastor Do?

Paul P: What does that physically, practically mean? I’m trying to figure out what is it you actually do. We sort of made the joke going over and emptying somebody’s trash or whatever. But I imagine it’s a lot more in depth than that. What is sort of the top level? Give some examples of what you do.

Paul B: Yeah, really, the most important things that a pastor is to do is really to minister in the word and in prayer — so to serve with the word of God. So you’re going to teach the Bible. You teach what it means and how we live in light of the Bible. So that’s done in many different contexts. That’s done in the context of relationships and meetings. Maybe you have different meetings, different groups that meet at the church, most centrally in our Sunday worship. There’s a message every week. You know, a 40, 45-minute message that’s given on the scriptures, the truth of the scriptures and the application of that. So you’re teaching the word but that’s also happening in relational contexts throughout the week.

I meet a lot in more one-on-one or one-on-two type contexts for what we would call biblical counseling. So people going through difficulties. It could be a long stint in unemployment and just wondering, you know, “What do I do?” And, “I feel terrible about myself, and so help me out.” And we talk about biblical truths that impact that and that help them endure through those times, where people are suffering and going through sickness. We have people with relational conflicts. And all the different problems of life, a pastor is to be a helper, comes alongside, helps with the truths of God’s word and understanding and applying and enjoying those truths.

Prayer would be something I spend time in, probably about an hour every day, just praying for our church. We believe that God is and he answers prayer, and we’re called to pray. All Christians are called to pray. But a pastor is really to spend a good amount of time praying, praying for his people. So that’s what I do.

During the week, we also, we’re an organization, as well. So we are an entity, an organization that has to be led and administered. So I oversee that. I don’t do too much of the administration. We have an administrator. We have different deacons, people who serve in the church in certain roles or responsibilities. So they do a lot of that, but I kind of oversee it. So there’s that aspect as well. I interact with other pastors and other, to some degree, community organizations and so that takes up part of the week. So all in all, I have to actually work hard to not spend too much time doing my job as a pastor and to keep my hours under 60.

The Nature of God – Who is God?

Paul P: Interesting. So now, we were talking about the sort of very nature of God, and you were saying he was good. There’s a lot of people who, I think, have an opinion on God that he’s a killjoy, or just angry man up in heaven. And, is that the accurate picture of him, do you think? Or would you agree with that or not?

Paul B: No, I think it’s a very shallow picture. I think you have to deal with the fact, though, that he’s just and he’s good. And there are bad things that go on, and there are bad things we do. So to kind of think that it’s a guilt-free thing, it wouldn’t be accurate in the sense that God can’t just sweep the wrong things we do under the rug, but he does make provision for forgiveness, and he wants us to receive that provision and live in it. So the rest of the story is that he’s a God of great love. He’s a God who is glorious and all these things we see around us in creation are things that he’s made. So he’s just fantastic in all the things that he does and all the things that he wants us to engage in with him. So he’s all those things. He’s good. And he provides for us. And he cares for us. He loves us deeply. He’s infinitely powerful.

And so, again, we touch on these things in life. We love what the Hubble Telescope shows you, you know. That’s what God made, and it shows us what he’s like. He’s glorious. He’s an artist. He causes the sun to rise and set and eclipses to happen and all these glorious things that, because of just his genius, his power, and he wants you to know him. And he wants us to enjoy eclipses, and he wants us to enjoy sunny days, and he wants us to love each other, and he wants us to form companies like Savior Labs to, to do good things, to use gifts. There’s just really innumerable types of things that we’re to do by God’s design, and it really shows his character.

So yes, we have to deal with the fact that he’s holy and good, and he’s concerned about the reality of our sin and our brokenness. But he provides for that, and he wants us to live in his love. He wants us to be reconciled and, and that’s a big motivator for us as a church — to live in those things and to so love our neighbors and our community that they would be interested in hearing that good news and experiencing its results.

Is God a Mean Guy?

Paul P: That’s fascinating. There’s been a strand through history of God being this mean god up there. Certainly, there’s a bunch of people, I would think, think that. And it sounds like the God you’re describing isn’t like that. It sounds like his predominant feature or attribute is love. And that’s like, okay, so what’s the big deal? If he likes me, that seems like it’s going to trump a lot of things. I’m wondering why the predisposition to thinking he’s this big, bad, mean, mean guy up there?

Paul B: Yeah. That’s a good question. I don’t know why we always think that. I think it can come from our own sense of looking at our lives and realizing that we’ve, when we compare ourselves against God, we don’t look too good. So the typical response when God shows up in scripture is for people to hide, uh, to be afraid. And I think that’s just because of who we are.

Again, we realize that something is wrong. So I think someone who’s realizing they’ve done something wrong is going to be predisposed to think that the party that they’ve offended is coming to be angry and deal with it. So that might be part of why we would think that way about God. But he’s so much more than that. Again, he is good. He’s not going to just wink an eye at those things. But he wants us to reconciled. He approaches us through Christ and invites us to be reconciled to him.

So his disposition is not primarily towards the offense. It’s towards us in love, towards reconciliation. So that’s how he is. That’s how he thinks about us. So that caricature of the angry man is inaccurate in that way. It’s not portraying who he is. But I think it does touch on the sense, our sense of guilt and the sense of there being a problem. And again, the Good News is that there’s a solution from God to deal with that.

Paul P: But it sounds like, not only is there solutions, but he’s gone out of his way to create the solution. So in other words, you know, it’s sort of like you offend me. I guess this is… Tell me if I’m paraphrasing you right. You’ve offended me, and so I’m offended. And I’m going to create the solution to reconcile with you, even though you’re the offensive one. I’m going to not only just create the solution, not just put it on the shelf, but I going to pursue you with it. That seems radical.

Paul B: Yeah. It is radical. And we see that in the life of Christ. As we read those stories, we see what God is like. Jesus says that. If you know him, you know the father. If you really want to know what God’s like, read about Jesus in one of the gospels.

Looking Deeper in the Bible

Paul P: What would you recommend somebody read if they’ve sort of known this or heard this or are socially aware of it but are sort of intrigued by some of the things they’ve heard?

Paul B: Yeah. I think lots of places. Two good places to go, quick read that gives you a quick and dramatic snapshot of Christ—

Paul P: Well, it is 2017, so everything has to be quick.

Paul B: It’s not that quick. It’s not just a tweet. But the Gospel of Mark, is packed with action. You get to see Jesus at work, and there’s a lot of explanation that goes on. He does something, and then it gets explained and interpreted. So it’s a great way to see what he’s like.

Paul P: All of these references will be in our show note. And so, if you’re driving now, you don’t have to write this down. You can go back to our show notes afterwards.

So what else would you consider something that would be an encouragement to somebody that’s curious about this?

Paul B: Another good place to start is the Gospel of John. The Gospel of John is a little more intellectual maybe, a little more oriented towards concepts versus action. So Mark brings you who Jesus is through a lot of action and then explanation of the action. John is more… it’s still action. Jesus does things, but then there’s a lot of truth, a lot of ideas and concepts that are discussed and extended, and they go on for quite a while at times. I love them both. I like John in its depth of engagement and some of those concepts.

The Gospels

Paul P: So you said the Gospel of Mark or the Gospel of John. What, what does that mean? In the Bible, there are all these different chapters or books in there and they are… Are they stories? Or what, what are they?

Paul B: The gospels. Again that would is just an old English way of saying Good News. So they’re the Good News according to Mark and, really, the good news about the life of Christ according to Mark. And they are ancient biographies. It’s important to understand ancient biographies are not like modern biographies so that the genre of biographies at that time was more about exposing you to the hero by kind of giving you snapshots. And it’s not a chronology. It’s not a detailed chronology of the hero’s life. It’s really like here’s what happened. Here’s what he did, and here’s what that means. Boom, boom, boom. You get a lot in that, so I’m not trying to underplay what you get from it. But if you go into it thinking I’m going to see a detailed, chronological biography of Jesus, you’re not going to see that.

Paul P: He was born on this day. It was a Thursday. It was raining. His parents were this, and then he grew up, and he, liked trains. Okay.

Paul B: Yeah. So it’s just a different type of literature, but really engaging biography.

Which Bible Should I Read?

Paul P: Okay. And so you’d recommend reading the Gospel of Mark and, and/or the Gospel of John. And now I know there are lots of different bibles out there. I mean, you can get the Photoshop bible, which tells everything about Photoshop. So you’re talking about, I think, the Holy Bible, of course, but there are different translations. There’s old English, which is sort of the, I think it’s called the King James Version, and what would you suggest would be more easy to read or easy to understand Bible that might be something that, you know, so you can choose from anything you want. We’re in America. We’re on the internet. We can pretty much get any, anything we want right now. Where would you have them turn?

Paul B: My favorite is the English Standard Version. All these versions are just different translations into English. So they’re pretty much all from the same original languages. So they’re all working off the same language — Hebrew and Greek and so forth. It’s just how do you say that in English? How do you translate it into our language? So they all agree very much. It’s just how do you phrase it.

So the English Standard Version is very well done. It’s a little more kind of college-level English, which can be good sometimes, because it can be more precise when it needs to be. If you want something that feels more kind of like how you talk with your best buddies, you know, the Contemporary English Version is good. And sometimes, you know, that is more effective.

I remember hearing a story of someone who went to college and was exposed to a Bible like the English Standard Version and read it and engaged in it. And they had grown up speaking, as a child, Pidgin English in Hawaii, and they were at some seminar, and there was a Bible translator reading out of a Hawaiian Pidgin English Bible, and this person was just touched deeply in their heart in ways that they had never been before, hearing the same words they had heard in a different translation now spoken in their childhood language. So it can has been that effect. So if you’re more comfortable kind of with the common vernacular you grew up with, maybe the Contemporary English Version. But the English Standard Version is an excellent—

Paul P: Well, we’ll put links to those in the show notes, maybe even the Pidgin…Hawaiian Pidgin English? Is that what it’s called?

Paul B: That’s it. Yeah.

Paul P: Wow.

Paul B: It’s called the Jesus Book.

Social Media as a Relationship Substitute

Paul P: Wow. Interesting. So we’ve sort of touched on social media and social, well, sort of social things — clubs we talked about and associations. And how do you think that is, we’re in 2017. There’s never been a 2017 yet. We’re in the first version of it, the only version of it. And we’ve never had the internet like we have it today. It’s all these new things. Imagine similar to the way the printed book was hundreds of years ago, or than the telephone was a hundred years ago, or not even a hundred years ago.

So all of these technologies come about. I think one of the differences between, I mentioned I’m into photography, so there’s been a photography club since photography was invented and people who were interested in it sort of clustered together and socialized and fellowshipped and got interested in that. But that took a very active, deliberate, act to go to a photo club. You’d have to go and do that.

Now with the internet, they’re sort of in our pocket. We can do anything we want. We can self-identify or have affinity to these groups that are much less, I guess, maybe tactile. You can have this virtualization of yourself to say, “Oh, yeah, I’m, I’m into photography because I go to this website that covers photography,” but there’s no person-to-person contact there. I might have a post on a Facebook page.

So what does that mean? Is that good? Is it bad? Is it a placebo for real relationships? And is it somebody sitting there trying to fill a need that ultimately they can’t fill because there’s nobody else in the room?

Paul B: Yeah, so is your question related to just the impact of these things on the church?

Paul P: I think that the church is one way to experience relationships. There is a big aspect of it based on what you’ve said. And what I’ve observed is that relationships are pretty important. So social media tends to, I think — I don’t want to overuse the word — become a placebo for relationships.

Paul B: Yeah, I think it’s a tool for relationship but I think we have to be careful to use it appropriately. So it can only do certain things. It can’t do other things. And I think the mistake is that we think it does it all. But like you were saying, placebo, you know, it gives this sense, like “Well, since I watch this church’s Sunday service from my house, I’m part of the church, and I’m, I’m good. I’m good to go, you know. I’m really involved in this church that I watch every Sunday,” or every Sunday night or whatever.

Now I don’t think it’s wrong necessarily to watch a church service on video. It can be great. But is that really what is intended in being part of a church? There’s so much more. There’s relationships, as you were saying. There’s a depth, there’s a breadth of relationship that is supposed to be part of being in a church. If you don’t have any commitment to anybody in that church to be there when they’re needy and just to be a friend—

Paul P: That’s what I’m saying.

Paul B: —to just to enjoy life together to some degree together as well, then you’re really not a part of that community. You’re just an observer. And yes, I think we can be anesthetized to the need for real community through the use of social media. And so we need to be wise and use it as a tool that’s appropriate to do certain things but to not use it as a total replacement for genuine community.

Paul P: I think one of the things in social media, that a lot of don’t necessarily recognize is that you don’t have any of the nonverbal cues that you can walk into a room and sense that somebody is not having a good day or is having a fantastic day. And you don’t have any way to perceive that in social media. And so it’s almost like a vacuum between us. And again, it’s not bad to send a message from one person to another or from me to the ether and everyone sees it that says, “I like Golden Retrievers.” Okay. It’s like that’s not a bad thing there. But if I don’t have a situation where people are perceiving my joys and sorrows, I’m missing out on a lot, I guess.

The Presence of a Person

Paul B: Yeah. I mean, you could analyze it from many avenues. The communication bandwidth is limited, as you were saying. So that’s certainly true. And there’s other media that’s true as well. The telephone, which we use quite a lot, doesn’t allow us to see each other. It’s a little bit better than text because you can hear in a voice. You can hear tones and cadence and all those things. So, it’s limited. Social media is limited in its bandwidth, but there’s other things that it can’t touch on, beyond just its ability to communicate or not communicate. I think there’s a huge statement in presence when we’re with somebody physically. We’re there. We’re there in their own space. We’re eating a meal together. We’re there physically. There’s an implication of friendship commitment. And there’s just something that it does for us in our relationships what we have experiences together where we’re near each other. We — I don’t know — go hang gliding together or something, you know. We’re going to talk about that for the rest of our lives. “Remember that time we went hang gliding?”

It wasn’t just that you went hang gliding, and then I went hang gliding a week later.

Paul P: We texted about it?

Paul B: “Oh, we both did that. And let’s talk about it.” No.

“We went hang gliding together. And, you know, I heard you when you, when you screamed, you know. And, I saw you. You put that landing. And then did you see the seagulls flying around?” You know, whatever it is. There’s a relationship, a fellowship in a sense in that activity together. So that’s way beyond just communication.

And then I think with that is just the life commitment of walking through life together and knowing that this person is here for me, you know. I mean, there are different levels of commitment. So within marriage, that’s a pretty high level. But the church is like a family. Family, that’s a very high level. Church is compared to a family in scripture. And so that community, the intension is that there be this life on life experience. And so social media can never do that.

Paul P: Alone it can’t do that. But I think it can enhance?

Paul B: Yeah. It’s a tool. And when it’s used appropriately, it can be very helpful.

King of Grace Church – How it Began

Paul P: Cool. So now, how long have you been doing this? You’re a pastor at a church, King of Grace in Haverhill, Mass. And we talked about you started out in Methuen and then moved into Haverhill. And so how long has this church been in existence?

Paul B: We celebrated our 15th anniversary in September actually. And I left to be trained as a pastor 17 years ago.

Paul P: So you didn’t just say one day, “I’m going to be a pastor,” and just say, “I’m open up a church.” That you actually planned and methodically went through this? Or was it “we’re going to drive to Boston?”

Paul B: Yeah. No, I didn’t want to do anything that crazy. It was a process and certainly there were other things that went on leading up to the decision to leave my job. So it was a smooth transition in the sense that it wasn’t like all of a sudden I went from doing nothing related to being a pastor to now being going off to be trained. I had been doing a lot of pastoral sorts of things up to that point. So when it was time to make the decision, it made sense.

And then I went to be trained at a pastors’ college within our denomination that has an accelerated program. So a lot of the elements you get over two or three years in seminaries, you get at this pastors’ college in nine or ten months.

Paul P: Oh, I see. Okay.

Paul B: It’s very intensive. It’s with pastors and the teachers, you get to interact quite a bit. A lot of mentoring that goes on. So it was a great. For me, it was nine month. And then I went into an internship to be further mentored and prepared. That was 11 months. And then from that I formed a team, worked with a team, and we all together started the church in 2002.

Paul P: So 15 years we’re coming up on. Are you where you expected? Not as far? Further? Or did you have no expectations or…?

Paul B: I’m grateful to be where we are. I’ll put it that way. Our church is about 200 folks that are there on a Sunday. In New England, that never happens, but that’s about how many folks we have and wonderful people and get into a lot of wonderful things.

When I started out, I was new at it and I planned out where I wanted to be. I had a one-year, five-year, a 10-year, and a 20-year plan. And so at this point, I think we’re at about the five year mark.

Paul P: Oh, really.

Paul B: Yeah.

Paul P: In what dimension? Numbers or building or…

Paul B: Multiple, multiple aspects. So, the numbers were related to just what I hoped would be the overall maturity of the church. I wanted it to be a church that was full of people that were fairly mature in their Christian worldview and the practice of that, a church that was effective in the community, reaching out to the community, being a helpful part of the community influencing people with the truth of Christianity. Also a church that was sending out other church plants. So there was a bunch of metrics that I had along those different time lines. So yeah, the five year would be inclusive of all those things. So, yeah.

Paul P: So it sounds like your expectations were higher than — dare I say — what God’s were?

Paul B: Yeah. And that’s fine with me. I think it’s better to, to aim high and then be content with what you get, so, rather than aim low and not get where you should be. So I still aim high. But it it’s tempered with some years of experience at this point.

The Main Thing – Wrapping it All Up

Paul P: Right. So, I guess just in closing, what would you sort of want to sum up? We’ve had a fairly meandering discussion here. But what would you want to say as a sort of summary of what we’ve talked about. And again, we’ve got lots of different people all over the world listening to this. They’re not all Bostonians who have a Boston worldview, which everybody in Boston thinks it’s the center of the universe, just if you don’t know that. So what would you what to sort of wrap up and put a bow on? The main things. Making sure the main thing is the main thing or remains the main thing, I think?

Paul B: Yeah. Wow. That’s a good question. We’ve talked about a lot of things. I think one of the big ideas in what we’re talking about is that we’re made by a good and great, incredibly interesting, creative, powerful, loving, good, and holy God. We’re made by him in his image, and he wants us to live that out in all it’s meant to be. But we need help with that. Left to ourselves, we’ve failed and will continue to fail. And in his care for us, in his goodness, he got involved, became a man, provided in the life and death and resurrection of Christ, a way for us to be reconciled with him and to start to fulfill what we’re made for, to image him, and all that that means. In all the different dimensions of creation and humanity. That’s offered to us. It’s a gracious gift. It’s a free gift, and we simply need to receive it, believe it, live in it, and I think live it out in the context of a community of faith, Christian faith. And I think it makes all the difference.

And I’d love to talk more and more, just about how it applies to every area of life. Again, I love science and wish I could do science and be a pastor. But, I know that worldview and that truth of being made in the image of God has a huge impact on how we do science, what we do science. And similarly with technology, with everything it connects.

So if I had to sum up, I’d say it’s about that big idea, being made by God in his image, and made for something that’s pretty fantastic. But we need help. We need him.

Paul P: Cool, very cool. Wow. We’ve been talking with Paul Buckley who’s the lead pastor at King of Grace Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts. All of his contact information and some of the resources we mentioned will be in the show notes, if you’re interested. And we appreciate your time in listening, and thank you for listening to the Edge of Innovation. Talk to you next time.

Exploring Christianity: The Good News

January 23, 2018 / Hannah / 0 Comments

On episode 57 of The Edge of Innovation, we are exploring Christianity with Pastor Paul Buckley of King of Grace Church.

Show Notes

The King Of Grace Church Website

Follow Paul Buckley on Twitter

Paul Buckley’s Blog

Follow King of Grace Church on Facebook

Listen to Paul Buckley’s recent sermons

Find King of Grace Church on Soundcloud to listen to more sermons from Pastor Paul Buckley and other King of Grace pastors

Link to SaviorLabs’ Free Assessment

Sections

Made in the Image of God
The Foundation of a Christian Worldview
Heaven and the Afterlife
The Problem with Humanity – Loving our Neighbors
The Good News – Why God Became Man
Forgiveness
God is not an Angry Old Man
The Cost of Being a Christ Follower
The Core Needs in Life

Exploring Christianity: The Good News

Made in the Image of God

Paul P: We’re on the track here of Jesus died for your sins. I’m not sure why we would need to die for sins, but we’ll talk about that in a second. But you just said “made in the image of God.” You mentioned that a couple of times. If God is God in anybody’s measure of God, that seems a little bit boastful or a little bit…you know, I’m equal to the president. Or I’m equal to Tom Brady. Well, no. You’re not. So where does that come from?

Paul B: Yeah. Well the Bible teaches us that in the beginning chapters of the Bible, which are really foundational for all that follows in the Bible, it really tells us our origins, and it tells us that we’re made by God in his image. Really, we see both there, the whole storyline of the Bible is the invisible God, the God that is beyond physical sight, making himself known, making himself visible through his creation. He shows what he’s like through his creation, and he does that in multiple ways. He does that just in the things that we all enjoy, beautiful falls days in New England, the ocean, majestic mountains, all those sorts of things.

Paul P: Chocolate.

Paul B: Chocolate. He shows himself through all of these things, and we love engaging those things, but he shows himself through mankind. Mankind is kind of the pinnacle of him revealing himself and showing us what he’s like. We don’t image him completely and we don’t image him, perfectly, but we do image him. We do show what he’s like. He’s relational. He’s moral. He’s into creating and recreating and expressing himself through interacting with creation. Those are just some of the ways that we image God.

Paul P: It sounds sort of genetics, like you see somebody, and you say, “Hey, you look just like this person.”

“Oh, yeah. He’s my father.”

So that’s interesting. So it’s that children come out in the image of their parents. So I guess maybe that’s something to think about there.

The Foundation of a Christian Worldview

Paul B: It’s foundational to a Christian worldview, that we’re made in the image of God. And so I could argue for it from different avenues but most importantly that the scriptures reveal that truth, give us that truth to build other things on.

Paul P: Okay. So now let’s go back to what you were saying that Christ died for our sins. I don’t know. Did Confu—, did Buddha die for his people’s sins? Or is it channelized like that?

Paul B: Well certainly I think every worldview deals with the issue of failure, of moral failure. And Buddhism has its own practices and thoughts on that. But Buddha didn’t die to atone for sins.

Paul P: What do you mean, atone?

Paul B: He didn’t die to deal with sins and the implications of sins. Christ died to atone for sin. So he died to pay the penalty, the consequences of sin. So let me just back up. We were talking about the image of God.

We’re made in the image of God, and so, as such, we know right and wrong. Actually, the Bible would say we have an inherent sense of God, and so when we make choices not to love others, and most importantly, not to love God — because he’s made himself known just in creation — when we choose not to love him and to live that way, that’s sin. So that’s either by committing things that are wrong or failing to do what’s right. All of the law, all of the ways, the ethics of God can be summed up in two simple commandments: love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; love your neighbor as yourself.

So failure to do those things is sin. And God is just. He’s good. Therefore, he has to be just, and therefore he has to bring consequences to bear. He has to deal with wrongdoing. We all have an inherent sense of justice. We want wrong things dealt with, and we want people who perpetrate evil things to be dealt with. God’s no different. Matter of fact, he’s the guy that made us like that. And, in his goodness, he judges sin, and the punishment for sin, the punishment for rebellion against God is to be pushed away from his presence, to experience what it’s like to be separated from goodness. We see that, to a degree, in the world we live in. The brokenness of our world is a consequence of sin, and there is a spiritual consequence of a broken relationship through our sin.

We believe as Christians that, should we not reconcile with God, and not respond to his gracious activity, we’ll live eternally separated from him. So Christ came, God came in the flesh, became a man, lived a life of love for God, love for others, and then laid down that good life on a cross, in our place, that paid for the sins that we deserved to pay for. So through faith in him, simply believing and receiving him as the one that rescues us and leads us onward, we are forgiven. Our sins are paid for, and we’re reconciled to God.

And that’s really the start of a new life. It’s a start of reconciliation of a new creation in God, and a life living, following Jesus and being fruitful people. That impacts us now, has a huge impact on how we live life now. And really, we believe, impacts us for eternity, leads us into an eternity of following Christ.

Heaven and the Afterlife

Paul P: So you’ve mentioned that Christ died for my sins or for sins or for… I don’t know. You can clarify that — died for sins that I might not have even known I had. I mean certainly I’ve done some bad things. But isn’t that just the way it is? I mean, so am I excluded from heaven? Is God actively keeping me out, or what’s the deal there? And is that the goal? So we’re sort of talking about is there an afterlife, you know, because if there’s not an afterlife, well then, do whatever you want. Right? Except we have this inherent concept of good and evil, and I shouldn’t hurt the people that I don’t like.

Paul B: Yeah. I think there’s a historic view of these things in light of, “I want to go to heaven,” you know. So I want to believe these things so I get to go to heaven.

And I don’t think that’s really the whole picture. Sometimes it gets shortened and reduced and misses a lot of things. The issue isn’t heaven, per se. The issue is God. And the Bible is very clear that the reality is that we are separated from God by our sin. Just as we get into conflict we people, we do something terrible against our neighbor, it makes it difficult to interact with them. We don’t have a same relationship. So there’s a relational problem with God because of us, not because of him. He still is the same. He’s committed to being gracious and good and kind, but we have broken the relationship with our sinful choices, with the choosing not to love him, and not to love others. And we’re kind of stuck there. We’re, we’re addicted to dumb decisions in some ways.

Paul P: So you’re saying that the actual way I behave has an effect on how I know God or experience him?

The Problem with Humanity – Loving our Neighbors

Paul B: Yes. I, I think that we all have that problem, and collectively together, it makes a big mess. So we, we tend to externalize this, don’t we. Do we look at the news. We look at what’s going on in the world, and we think, what terrible people. But those are people just like us. And we could be the people doing that thing that we critique. Humanity has a problem. We have it as individuals. I think of, I think it was G. K. Chesterton. They asked people to write what they thought the biggest problem in the world is, and his submission was something like,

“Dear Sirs,
I am.
Sincerely yours,
G. K. Chesterton.”

Paul P: Oh, interesting. Was he a criminal?

Paul B: No. He was a very moral man, but he recognized it. So he’s an author and a theologian, back in the early 1900’s. And he understood that the biggest problem in the world is each of us individually and our broken relationship with God, that we live in this place where we make bad decisions. We follow the insanity of not loving a creator who has given us all these things, not loving our neighbors as ourselves. So that’s the reality. And that reality in our sin and in our brokenness with God, has cut us off from an ongoing relationship with him.

Paul P: So as I’m hearing you, I’m sort of thinking, “Well, why wouldn’t I like my neighbor?” Why wouldn’t I just be kind and nice to people and I know that certain people annoy me. I’m struggling with what’s the reason for that. Is this what religion is about, trying to answer that question, or is it trying to answer our relationship with God question? Or is it both, and they’re so closely mingled that you can’t separate them?

Paul B: Yeah. I’d say the latter. In the Christian worldview, that loving God and love our neighbors are connected. It says in one place we really can’t say we love God if we don’t love our neighbors. So they’re connected. And I think we all have problems loving our neighbors.

Paul P: But they’re not that bad. I mean, you know. I tolerate them. So are you saying it’s supposed to be better than that? I’m just struggling with what the problem is here. I will admit that I struggle with some people. But let’s say that’s something I could overcome. And I could just be nice to everybody.

Paul B: Yeah. I think your standard is a little too light from what I hear. It says the standard is love your neighbor as yourself and that we are to love our neighbors on the same level that we love ourselves.

Paul P: What does that mean? I mean, practically?

Paul B: We equal regard for their wellbeing that we do for ourselves. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that you spend as much time and energy on your neighbor as yourself, because I think there’s a priority of responsibility that plays into all that. But your regard for their wellbeing is on the same level as the regard for your own wellbeing.

Paul P: Now is this a religious teaching or is this a Christian teaching? Do all the religions teach this?

Paul B: They may or may not get into that level of defining what it means but scripture is detailed in that. The famous story of the Good Samaritan who went out of his way and was very much inconvenienced to care for someone who was his natural enemy. The implication of the story was that Samaritan was being a good neighbor to that wounded, needy man. So it’s detailed to a great level, just the depth of care, the depth of concern that that’s the action that’s supposed to be there.

The Good News – Why God Became Man

Paul P: So it sounds like there are implications as you discover different facets of this worldview. So as you discover, “Gee, God’s pretty cool. I want to be his friend,” well, just be his friend. But there’s this problem of sin. Oh, my gosh. What am I going to do? So can I just solve my own sin and just not sin?

Paul B: No. It would be nice in some ways, I guess, but we can’t. So we need help. That’s the core, really, of why Christ came, why God become a man.

Paul P: Why would he do that? I mean, what’s in it for him? So you’re telling me that this Christ came to earth, lived a good life, and… I mean, I think I’ve lived a good life. So how does that compare? We’ll ask that question. But then, so he lives this good somehow special life. And then he dies for my sins. So explain that interchange to me.

Paul B: Well, he lived a perfect life. He never failed in his intention. He never had lesser regard for others than himself. He never had a lesser regard for God the father. He loved God the father with his whole life, and he lived in that way being full of faith and full of obedience, full of goodness and service to others. He demonstrated that he was more than just an average man in his miracles. So his life was on a level way above any of ours in both the perfection and the scope of what he did. We’re not going around walking on water, raising the dead. He did. So he demonstrated that he was more than the average man. Way more than the average man or woman.

So he was unique in that way. And as God and man together, two natures in one being, he was fully able to live that life and then fully able in offering that life to be in our place, to pay for our sins and and basically earn for us all the blessings of a right relationship with God, simply through faith. So that’s the core of the Christian message. That’s the Good News, that he’s died for our sins and, and now there’s forgiveness and new life and go forth.

Forgiveness

Paul P: Okay. So there’s forgiveness. So I go and offend somebody, and I say, you know, “Your, your clothing is just terrible.” And I hurt them, and they cry, and I feel bad. This is sort of a trivial example here. So I go to them and ask for forgiveness, and they forgive me, and we make up. Is that what you’re sort of talking about here? But it sounds like to a different quantum level.

Paul B: Yes. Right. So certainly forgiveness with individuals is important, but forgiveness with God is most important. So when you say those things to your friend, you need forgiveness from them. But you actually need forgiveness from God because they’re made in God’s image, and he cares a lot about them, and he cares about you.

Paul P: So I’ve not only offend them. I’ve offended God.

Paul B: Right. More importantly. Yeah.

Paul P: Does it matter if they’re a Christian or not?

Paul B: No. It doesn’t. They’re human.

Paul P: Okay. So just a person. I go and offend them, and you’re saying I’ve affectively offended God.

Paul B: Right. Yeah. And that would be the more important, more serious, perhaps, offense in what you did.

Paul P: So, okay. I can breathe somewhat a sigh of relief when somebody says, “I’m no longer angry at you.” And maybe I can go to God and say, you know, “Forgive me for this,” and breathe a sign of relief that he forgives in some form or fashion. But I’m going to make another mistake. So do I have to keep doing this or just try really hard not to make a mistake?

Paul B: Yeah. You are. You are going to make another mistake and that’s why we need forgiveness. We need it all the time. We need it, to live in it. We need to define ourselves as forgiven ones. I think part of making mistakes over and over again is because we don’t define ourselves as forgiven and changed by God. So the Good News comes in and says we’re forgiven. God forgives us. He’s for us. See, God loves us. He wants to teach us as if we’ve never done wrong. He wants to bless us and help us. He wants to be close to us.

God is not an Angry Old Man

Paul P: Alright. So I had asked you earlier, well, what’s in it for him? Can you explain that? I think a lot of people have an idea of God as sort of like an angry man, an angry old man or whatever. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. Don’t do this. That seems very different when you say he loves us. Well, what does that mean? I think even a lot of churches I’ve seen will say he loves us, but that doesn’t mean you’re going to be happy. So can you expound on that a little bit?

Paul B: Well, first off, he loves us, and he does want us to be happy. Getting us there might not be our best choice of how to get there. But he does want us to be happy. He loves us. As far as the question, What’s in it for him? I don’t think we can quite ask that question in the same way we might think in terms of human relationships because God is not like us. The Bible teaches us that he’s not in need. He doesn’t need us. He’s not lonely. He’s not sitting there thinking, “I just don’t have enough friends, so I’m going to go do this stuff to get more friends.” He’s perfect. He’s complete in himself. He’s three persons in one. It’s the mystery of the trinity. So there’s this relationship that’s been there forever. It’s a perfect relationship and full of all that you would think would come with an infinite being.

So he’s not needy, and he’s not trying to get a deal out of this. He’s just expressing who he is in creation and in the unfolding of time. In these actions, he’s expressing himself. He’s being himself. And part of who he is, he’s a God of infinite love. Has that much love that he’s glad and he’s eager to show that love to humans.

But he’s also a God of perfect justice and wisdom and goodness. So he has to deal with that side of things too. So the wonderful part of the good news is that God makes a way that he can pour out his infinite love and blessing on us and deal with the injustices that we’ve perpetrated in a perfect way so that we can be forgiven. That forgiveness doesn’t just mean petty, like, “I guess he’s not angry with me anymore.” No. It means full inheritance and rights to his love and all that comes with that. So being a Christian is to live in that love and to learn how to be more loving as well. So that’s where you’re going to make a mistake again. Yes. But when you start this walk and start to know God and live in these truths, there’s a change in our outlook. There’s a change inside of us. The scripture talks about being a new creation. And there’s the ability to start changing in what we do. Now we still fail, and we still need to remember that we’re forgiven, and we need to remember that we’ve been given a new relationship, and that relationship defines us more than our failures.

And I think there’s great power in that to change and to be a better person that comes out of that.

The Cost of Being a Christ Follower

Paul P: Okay. That sounds pretty attractive, to say, okay. I am going to be forgiven from my sins, even ones I haven’t committed yet, or ones I commit in the future. So in other words, there’s this relationship, I guess, you’re talking about, that has been restored with God in some form or fashion. But what does it cost me? I mean, what’s the downside here? Do you have to dress a certain way? It sounds like too good of a deal.

Paul B: Yeah. Well, it costs you both nothing and everything. It costs you nothing because it’s through simple faith. It’s putting your faith his him, believing this message to be true, and then entrusting yourself to the person of Christ. So that really doesn’t cost you anything. You’re not earning something there. He doesn’t wait to see what else you’re going to do to cinch the deal. So it’s simply through faith, a faith that turns away from sin and towards Christ so that in that faith is a change, what we would call repentance. So it’s turning to him in faith.

So it costs you nothing in that sense. But it costs you everything because to be joined to him is to be transformed by him and to live a new life of loving him and following him. And really when we make that decision to trust him, we’re laying everything else down. We’re saying, “I’m going to trust you. I’m going to follow you.”

Now the sorts of changes that come in our lives, the sorts of things that his leads us into are, are not silly things. It’s not about wearing a special sort of hat or something around or an unusual costume or something like that. It’s about ethical changes, belief changes. Those are the sorts of things that we change in. So that’s where it costs us, in a sense. But those things follow from, from what we believe. And those things are actually, I think they’re really good things — those sorts of changes, those sorts of ethics that we live in, the sorts of decisions that we make as a result, I think, are good things and have a very positive impact all around us.

He doesn’t promise us a life of ease and comfort necessarily, but he does promise us himself and the strength, the help, the comfort that comes from being in a relationship with him that can take us through the difficulties of life.

The Core Needs in Life

Paul P: Interesting. So I’m trying to think what the core needs are in life. You know, we need food, shelter. But is it relationship? Is that the core thing we want? Because I was thinking in the analogy where I said somebody’s dress, or clothes were ridiculous or something and hurt their feelings. What I’m doing there is breaking a relationship and doing that. Now I might say, “Well, gee, you know, I want… Life to me is I want to be rich, and I want to have a lot of houses and cars and things like that.” What is the core need that we’re trying to fulfill? And how does that integrate or not integrate with being a Christian and knowing who God is?

Paul B: Yeah, I don’t think the core needs are food, clothing, and shelter. Those are important physical needs. It’s kind of hard to get by without them. But they’re not the core needs. It’s not really what we live for. We live for something deeper and greater. I think we live for things that come from relationships. But I don’t think it’s relationships, per se. I think we’re looking for purpose. We’re looking for love. We’re looking for acceptance. I think we’re looking for God really. I think that makes sense if we think about it. He’s made us in his image. He’s made creation to be a place where he shoes himself. So if we have a broken relationship with him, we’re going to try to find him, in a sense, even if it’s in a confused way.

So I think that’s what we’re looking for, and we can find a degree of that in healthy relationships. So we want to celebrate those things.

Paul P: But there seems to be so few examples of healthy relationships in media, and all the different things. You know, you hear Brad and Angelina break up, and oh my gosh, it’s terrible. You don’t hear about all the good relationships. So it seems to be our lot that we’re not having a lot of good relationships as humans.

Paul B: Yeah, there’s a lot of problems I think. But, you know, there’s a lot of good that we see out there, and we celebrate that. Right? So, you know, we were watching what’s happened in Houston, and we’re watching people respond and to do heroic things to help people. And we all love to watch that and participate as we’re able as well. So we’re looking for that. We celebrate. We love those things.

But yeah, we’ve living in a broken world. So at one moment, we’re reading these stories of heroism, and then another moment, we’re reading these stories of terrible relational things and tragedy. And again, we’re made in the image of God, and so we’re made to be like him. And he’s loving, and he’s like that. He lays his life down for us. And that idea of someone doing that inspires us. And he’s the one that rescues us from the brokenness, our brokenness. We, we need the help. We need reconciliation. We need a change in our lives to learn how to build relationships that are healthy, to do that in all the different contexts of our relationships.

Exploring Christianity With Pastor Paul Buckley

January 9, 2018 / Hannah / 0 Comments

On episode 56 of The Edge of Innovation, we are talking with Pastor Paul Buckley of King of Grace Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts.

Show Notes

The King Of Grace Church Website

Follow Paul Buckley on Twitter

Paul Buckley’s Blog

Follow King of Grace Church on Facebook

Listen to Paul Buckley’s recent sermons

Find King of Grace Church on Soundcloud to listen to more sermons from Pastor Paul Buckley and other King of Grace pastors

Link to SaviorLabs’ Free Assessment

Sections

What Is a Church?
A Faith Community
An Engineer Becomes a Pastor
Planting a Church
What Do People Look for in a Church?
A Christian Worldview
What is Christianity?
What is Sin?
Knowing Right from Wrong

Exploring Christianity with Pastor Paul Buckley

Paul P: Hello, everyone. I’m Paul Parisi, and today I’m here with Paul Buckley who is a lead pastor at King of Grace Church in Haverhill, Massachusetts. Welcome, Paul.

Paul B: Thanks. Great to be here.

Paul P: Good to have you. As we’ve talked about the Edge of Innovation, we talk about a lot of eclectic, different things and we really want to focus on the people as opposed to what they’re specifically doing technically. We’re a technical company, Savior Labs, but all of this technology is built to do something. And we’re not really focusing on the technology here. We’re talking about what we’re doing and what we’re hoping to accomplish.

What Is a Church?

So, I guess, King of Grace is a church, it’s that fourth word. It says King of Grace Church.

Paul B: Yeah, we’re a church.

Paul P: So what does that mean? I mean, there’s a lot of churches on a lot of corners. We’re in New England. It seems like they’re everywhere. Is it just an ordinary church? Is there something ordinary about church? Tell me about what a church is?

Paul B: Yeah, good question. That’s a word we use, and I think we don’t necessarily think about what it means. Really, it’s a community of people who are committed to faith, to their Christian faith, and they’re committed to one another in living together, walking out that faith, and serving the community. In some ways, a church should be a community within a community. So churches are all around us. They’re in multiple communities. But really, the historic idea, the biblical idea of a church is it’s really a faith community. It’s a faith community that lives within a community to be an influence for good on that broader community as well.

Paul P.: Okay. So you’ve used this word faith a couple of times. I don’t want to get too far afield here. But what is faith? Is it a wish, a hope? I’m not sure. What is faith? Give me a high-level understanding of it.

A Faith Community

Paul B: Yeah, well, there would be two aspects of faith when the word faith is used. It can be, you know, what you believe — the particular things you believe are true. It also is a body of belief as well. So when I say a faith community, I mean it is a community of people that believe something, but it’s really it’s a community defined by a body of belief. It’s a worldview really. I would argue that we all have faith. We all have a faith. We all have a worldview, and that influences who we are, how we interact, what we do with our lives.

So a church is a faith community. It’s a community defined by a body of belief, a particular worldview.

Paul P: Okay. So now we’re talking about…you’ve mentioned churches and faith, and so there’s lots of different churches out there. There’s like the Catholic Church, Mormons, Buddhist churches, Jewish churches, you know. What do those differentiations and how do they… I’m not asking for a sort of detailed analysis of every faith that’s out there, but how do you, at a high level, from a social point of view, talk about those?

Paul B: Yeah. Good question. The word church is usually used in the Christian context. So if you’re speaking of Jewish churches, rough equivalence of a church, it would be a temple, a temple community. Other as well — Buddhist temple and so forth.

So when we say church, there’s an implication there that we’re speaking of a Christian-faith community. And certainly we can look in society, and we see all sorts of faith communities and they may call themselves churches or associations, temple communities, so forth.

Paul P: Why isn’t it called a club?

Paul B: Good, good question. Yeah, well, a club would be different. Generally speaking, a club is an association of people who have a common interest, and they usually limit their activities to those particular interests. So, they’re generally narrower interests in a club. So a tennis club. What do you do there? Well, you play tennis. So generally, that’s how we use “club.” A church, faith community really is more holistic. That body of belief that we hold together is not a very narrow interest. It’s a very broad worldview, and there are commitments. There are lifestyles that follow from that worldview. So it would be much broader. And that’s why we wouldn’t want to use the word club because that would imply that somehow it’s maybe more casual and narrower in scope and so forth.

An Engineer Becomes a Pastor

Paul P: Okay. Well I’ve got a bunch more questions on that, but we are too far afield. So you’re Paul Buckley. Now I know that you have a Ph.D. So did you go to divinity school?

Paul B: No, I didn’t. I went to Johns Hopkins, which, actually, Johns Hopkins has a divinity school there, but I didn’t get my Ph.D. in divinity.

Paul P: So what was it? What was it in?

Paul B: In science. A Ph.D. in material science.

Paul P: So that doesn’t sound conventional. I mean, I imagine most people who are — I guess I’ll use the term — clergy. I guess you could be a monk or a priest or a pastor or a lot of different terms for that. Most of them don’t get there by going to school for material sciences. Is that true?

Paul B: At least not immediately.

Paul P: Yeah.

Paul B: True. Yeah. I didn’t get my Ph.D. merely to be a pastor. Certainly it has implications. I think it has a lot of implications in pastoring. But I was a research engineer for 14 years for the government and loved what I did, loved my work. And I did a lot of work that made a Ph.D. really important and really helpful.

Paul P: Okay. What could have happened that said, “Okay. I’m going to take this” — I don’t know — “lucrative career” — an engineer — “and go into this other business or career becoming a pastor”?

Paul B: Yeah. Sometimes I ask myself that question. It was a process, and it was a long process in some ways. Though I have to say, from very early on, I had an interest in Christian leadership and trust in a sense of call, obligation that I think, was more than just my bright idea to serve in that capacity, though I always thought of it as really being a lay leader of some sort. That’s what my personal preference, in some ways, would be.

Paul P: Okay. And by lay leader, what do you mean?

Paul B: Yeah. I mean by that someone who’s not full-time, you know, ordained clergy or really not ordained is what we mean when we say “lay.” So not being an ordained pastor, not being full-time. And so my expectation was just to serve in a capacity where, you know, I was a leader in the church, not necessarily a pastoral leader.

Paul P: Okay. But something must have… I mean, that’s a pretty radical departure from saying, “I’m going to be an engineer working in a job” — you were in a career — to saying, “I’m going to throw that all away.”

Paul B: Yeah. Well, it felt like that at times, and certainly when I told my dad initially, he thought that. Yeah. Good question. Again, it was a process. And so my desire to serve led me to serve in multiple capacities. And as I did that over time, I found myself being fairly effective in pastoral-type roles.

Paul P: Interesting.

Paul B: And it wasn’t necessarily planning to do that. At times I was, and, you know, toyed with the idea. But by the time the opportunity opened up, at that point in my life, I wasn’t planning on it. And I was, to a degree, effective in that role. And that wasn’t just me. It was those that I helped, those that I served, those that were over me — my pastors. Basically, there was a choir of folks saying we see a pastor here. And, I was probably the last guy to say, I guess you’re right. But it became pretty obvious, and I had to make a decision. I had to make a decision what the best stewardship of my gifts in my life would look like. And I would love, and still would love, to be in science. But you can’t really do both, at least the particulars that I chose.

So as I thought through that, I thought through what is responsible, and really, behind all that, a sense of what is God doing, you know, when I look at how I’m being used, and I look at the opportunities; I look at the needs; when I pray, when I talk to others, so forth and so on. You know, what do I think God wants me to do? Where’s my purpose? And not that it was some sort of lesser purpose to do science — I would have loved to continue — but there was a strong sense, well, I think this is what I ought to do. I think I do, in a sense, add value, a particular value, in this role. And so that’s kind of what led me to become a pastor and to become a church-planting pastor.

Planting a Church

Paul B: Okay. Now wait a minute. So you became a pastor, but then you said…what’s this church planting? I mean, there’s lots of churches everywhere. Explain what you mean by church planting.

Paul B: Yeah. A church plant is really a church, a new church, that’s started. Every church that exists, at some point, was a church plant. In the West, we’re kind of used to established churches. So we don’t think in terms of church plants because they were planted a long time ago. But they were planted. So the history of Christianity is a history of church planting. Jesus gave his followers this commission. He told me to go out and make disciples and affect the whole world. And really, the pattern in scripture and the pattern in Christian history is through churches, through local faith communities being started in areas growing and becoming more like Christ in their belief and practice and then being a positive influence in the community where they are.

Paul P: So you decided to — I imagine with other people’s encouragement — plant a church. And where did you do that? Is that in Haverhill where you are now?

Paul B: The church in Haverhill is the one we planted. Originally, we were in Methuen. So we were, at the time before we started the church, before we planted — and we did this with a team. It wasn’t just us, my wife and I. It was a whole team. Before that, we were in Maryland, though we’re from the Boston area. My wife is from Haverhill actually. We were in Maryland, and then we were in the Philly area. And so, from there, we came up and started the church, and as we worked with an organization, our denomination, and others as well, we made a decision to start something in the Merrimack Valley. And so originally, we thought Methuen would be a good place, and it was in many ways. We picked Methuen, and grew.

And over time we were kind of drawing people from a regional area, a fairly broad region, and we are to some degree still doing that. But we started to realize we were going to be more effective if we concentrate on a particular city of town, not to the exclusion of anything else, but to major on a particular city or town. And through a number of circumstances — one being that a wonderful building opened up in Haverhill, others being that everything we were doing in Haverhill was very successful, very well received. And also that, of any particular town, Haverhill was the most common one where people lived in our church. So all that kind of led us to locate in Haverhill in 2009.

What Do People Look for in a Church?

Paul P: And so now, I imagine people come to church and go from church. It’s something to do on Sunday, I guess. But what do you think people — families, individuals — are looking for? Why are they going to churches? I mean, we have so many different social opportunities now. Not that that’s too different. I mean, you know, years ago we had the Elks Club and the, whatever, the Square Dancing Club and all those different clubs. Is, is church different than that? I mean, you’ve mentioned it sort of is because there’s a common faith. But what are they looking for? Is it where I get my needs met? Or what do you think it is?

Paul B: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think initially, there can all sorts of thoughts there. And, and we as a church are prepared to welcome people coming from all different motivations. But I think long-term, to stay a part of a church, stay a part of our church and many others, there’s something more going on than just a particular interest, a club-like interest. Because there people who come because they want to have a spiritual experience for their children. They think that’s a positive thing. So they want to expose them to that. And that’s fine. That’s a fine motivation. But I don’t think that motivation is going to sustain someone’s involvement in the church long, long-term. They might come just because they like what we do in the community, and they want to check us out and see what’s going on.

But long-term, really the things that keep us and lead us onward are, are I think, more substantial than those particular interests. It’s really the idea of a robust worldview that shapes our lives in a positive way makes a real difference in how we live, how we relate to others, what we think about ourselves, how we understand God, and the choices we make in life, really, in every arena. It’s about a comprehensive worldview that propels us, that gives us something bigger than, I think, we can get in all those other interests. So clubs are great. I’m involved in clubs and so forth, but you’re not going to find something robust and comprehensive, define your life on a larger scale from those particular clubs and interests.

And I think, you know, it’s something to think about. Sometimes we can affiliate with a lot of different organizations along different interests but never have something that kind of gets deeper, gets to the heart, like, why am I here? Who am I? What should I be doing? You know, what is this about? Is it, is it worth something? Is there a purpose here? Those are really important questions that, I think if we don’t address them, they’re just going to be there, and they’ll nag us, and there with be a sense of disease, of just being ill at ease and so forth if that question doesn’t get answered.

A Christian Worldview

Paul P: Interesting. So as you were talking about that, I sort of thought of sort of different silos. Like I like photography and woodworking. So I could go to a photography club or a woodworking club or read magazines on photography or woodworking or computers. I love computers. And I could be really good at computers, but that doesn’t really inform photography. Or it doesn’t cross those barriers. And so, I guess it’s more holistic. Would you go there?

Paul B: Yeah. I think your, your worldview does influence your view of those different silos, and a Christian worldview is a robust one. I think it has an answer, and.it has truth. It has a lifestyle that affects all the different silos. So, a Christian should be involved in these different interests. It’s part of what it is to be human and to thrive as a human. But being part of a church helps you understand, have the perspective, the reinforcement and, and the fulfillment that, that God intended in all those activities.

What is Christianity?

Paul P: So, I mean, so you, you’ve used the term Christian several times. And what’s the simple definition of, of that? And how does it differ from other religions? Because I think that everybody — certainly in the 21st century world would say they’re all equal. You believe whatever you want. We have an almost overwhelming encouragement to believe whatever you want, as long as you are true to yourself, you’ll be fine. So is that part of Christianity? Is that an extrapolation of Christianity? What is Christianity, I guess?

Paul B: Good, good question. Yeah. When we talk about being a Christian or having Christian faith, there are different aspects of what we mean. First there’s people that are nominal Christians, and what I mean by that is they take the name of Christian, and they like aspects of that and I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem. But historic and biblical Christianity is really following Christ. That’s probably the simplest definition. If you’re a Christian, you’re a follower of Christ.

Paul P: A follower of Christ. Okay. He’s not alive today. He’s not walking around. I can’t follow them with my car. What do you mean by that?

Paul B: Good question. Yeah. Well, I think he is alive today. That’s fundamental to following him, that we believe he is alive. We believe that the accounts of his life contained in the scripture are true and that from what we read and know, he did die, but then he rose again. He died on a cross. He suffered, died for sins to make atonement for sin so that we could be forgiven in him and have life in him. And then he rose again from the dead, and he ascended into heaven, and he’s coming back. Those are basic Christian truths that are contained in scripture, have been believed for thousands of years. So a Christ follower, one who follows Christ is one who follows a Christ who has died for sin and rose again and is alive.

What is Sin?

Paul P: So what that he died for sin? What does that mean? What is sin? I mean, because nowadays, it’s like do whatever you feel is good. Right? I mean, we define what’s good a bad by our own selves right now. So he died for sin. Can you flesh that out? What does that actually mean?

Paul B: Well, sin is not a happy word for us, really, is it? We don’t like to talk about it. It’s not mentioned much.

Paul P: So yes and no. But I don’t think anybody that can be reasonably intellectually honest about things, there’s this thing called sin, which you can define any way you want. You can give me your definition of it, and it’s neither. People don’t like to talk about it. Why do you think about people don’t want to talk about it? I mean, somebody has to talk about it. It’s like saying there’s no water in the lake. It’s like, well, we don’t talk about that. But the reality doesn’t change. So sorry to interrupt, but if there’s this thing called sin, and you’re saying that Jesus died for sin, what does that equation mean? What does that actually mean?

Paul B: Yeah. Well, we don’t like to talk about it because it’s uncomfortable, but we always deal with it. We see it around us. When someone does something wrong, we react to it. We know, really, what’s wrong and what’s right, to a great degree. Sin is really doing the wrong thing or failure to do the right thing. So we know that. We live with that.

Paul P: So is it that simple?

Paul B: Yes, it is.

Paul P: So you’re saying I shouldn’t do the wrong things. If I’m being intellectually honest, and I don’t like what somebody is wearing, I shouldn’t kill them. I mean, I’m being extremely outrageous here. But where does that come from, that notion that it would be wrong? And I think 10 out of 10 people would say, “That was wrong to kill that person. Why did you kill that person?”

“I didn’t like their shoes.” Well, that’s even worse wrong. So where does that come from?

Knowing Right from Wrong

Paul B: Yeah. That’s a great question. I think it comes from who we are. Fundamentally part of what it is to be human, what we would say, we’re made in the image of God. We’re made like God in the sense that we understand about people, we understand relationships, we understand ethics and so I think it’s inherent. Even if someone were not to grant me that, I would say it’s always very logical. The Golden Rule — do to others as you would have them do to you —and then there’s different versions of that, of course. It makes sense because you’re not the only or central being. When you start to acknowledge other identities around you — you know, “What right do I have over them? I should treat them as I would treat myself or want to be treated.”

Paul P: Okay that sounds reasonable.

Paul B: And that’s a biblical truth, but it’s also a logical truth that you see across all different worldviews really. But I would say it’s more than that. It is that, but it’s more. I think it is part of what it is to be made in the image of God too. I think we have inherent understanding of right and wrong and it’s built in.

Paul P: Well, let me stop you there. We’ll get back to that whole concept here of this.

Interior Designers: More than Meets the Eye

December 19, 2017 / Hannah / 0 Comments

On this episode of The Edge of Innovation, we are talking with interior designer, Amanda Greaves of Amanda Greaves and Company, about what it takes to be an interior designer.

The Competitive World of Interior Design

December 12, 2017 / Hannah / 0 Comments

On this episode of The Edge of Innovation, we are talking with interior designer, Amanda Greaves of Amanda Greaves and Company, about the competitive world of interior design.